Switching from Thermark to Fiber Laser

[mike wallis]

Hello,
We have been using Thermark for a couple of years which has proved profitable however we are considering going to a fiber to phase out the Thermark. We use Thermark on stainless steel and brass (1/16" thick) for sizes ranging from 1x3" to 18x24". Most of what we use it for is wall plaques that usually include a photo and text. Some reasons for phasing it out is it's time consuming, messy and toxic when sprayed. I'm hoping to get some feedback and opinions from someone who have been using a fiber laser for a similar application. Also looking for feedback from anyone who has used Thermark/Cermark and switched to a fiber. Were you glad you made the switch? If not what were the downsides?
Note that we are looking at purchasing a Epilog Fiber Fusion 50 watt however I'm also open to suggestions.

Thank you for your time and any feedback.
Mike W.

[Gary Hair]

I bought my first fiber hoping that it would completely eliminate Cermark from my vocabulary. It is safe to say that I was mostly disappointed with the results based on that assumption. If you need a black mark then a fiber is really not the way to do it, certainly not the fastest way. It can be done but it takes a lot more time than you would ever take using Cermark (or Thermark). Where it really shines for me is deep marking stainless and leaving a dark mark - not black but fairly dark. This takes much less time than Cermark, especially on small jobs where it takes more time to setup, spray/brush, laser, and cleanup. I do use the fiber to do a dark mark, technically called "staining" NOT annealing, fairly often on small plates instead of Cermark.

As for the laser itself - you won't have the same capabilities with a gantry fiber as you would have with a galvo, I would expect dark or deep marking to be so time consuming that you'll wish you were using Cermark instead! The only benefit you have with a gantry fiber is working area, but with the limitations vs galvo it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Supposedly there is a way to use Cermark with a fiber but so far nobody seems to have come up with the settings that actually work.

You mention toxicity when sprayed - have you tried brushing instead? I was an advocate for spraying for years but have recently found that brushing works really well if you practice a bit and focus on getting a thin, even, coat. Best of all, no mist in the air to breathe!

[mike wallis]

Hello Gary! Thank you for your reply, very valuable info. I would agree that the fiber mark is not as dark as Thermark. I've spent the last 3 months having samples run and the mark is mostly a dark brown on stainless. It can be darker in some cases. I might have found a workaround though. I've experimented with adding oil based paint into the etching after it's engraved which darkens it quit a bit. I think with the right paint fill (Exterior rated) it could be a good option. The best cycle time I've come up with using a gantry laser (Fiber fusion 50 watt) is about 1 hour for a 8x10" engraving on stainless. The cycle time is a bit high but it may be manageable. I've alao considered using the Fiber fusion for the larger jobs and a Galvo for the smaller ones.
Question, is the black mark the biggest issue?

Thanks again for your response.

[Gary Hair]

The best cycle time I've come up with using a gantry laser (Fiber fusion 50 watt) is about 1 hour for a 8x10" engraving on stainless.

That does seem like a long run but if you can charge enough then it's worthwhile. I have a job that I ran on my 30 watt GCC that took about 90 minutes, a 5x8 plate with a lot of very detailed graphics. The customer paid me $250 for them so it was well worth my while! I can run the same job on the fiber now in about 25 minutes - same price...

I've alao considered using the Fiber fusion for the larger jobs and a Galvo for the smaller ones.

That would certainly be the best of both worlds!

Question, is the black mark the biggest issue?

yes, other than that I really like my fiber machines! I'm about ready to spring for a portable machine to take with me to races so I can engrave the finisher medals. I posted a pic of mine from my recent half-marathon and everyone on the running group went gaga over it!

[Scott Shepherd]

That's a lot of money to spend to yield a slower run time than Cermark. It's not going to be a better result and it's going to take longer. That's $50K for what?

On larger plates, like control panels, we use Cermark over fiber every time. I wouldn't even consider running a 18" x 24" panel on a fiber. But that's just me.

If you want depth, then that time is going to be multiplied by a lot.

We, like Gary, thought the fiber would change things. It did, but just not how we thought. We went back to Cermark on a large number of the items.

[Keith Downing]

Scott, that's good to know; I'm also considering my options. So, what DO you use the fiber for that makes it worthwhile?

It may sound ridiculous but I'm debating between moving towards adding sublimation to our services vs adding another laser and trying to grow that way.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'd say the fiber has very specific things it does well. Large panels isn't one of them in my opinion. Deep engraving on a large panel, deep enough to color fill, is even worse.

The fiber is good for small things, in my opinion. It does great at anodized aluminum and various plastics. Engraving white polycarbonate for example, it does amazing, or black matte finish acrylic. Lots of things it does well, just large, deep engraving in metal isn't one I'd consider. Yeti cups isn't something I'd do on a fiber either. Not saying you can't do it, but rather it's easier and a better result on the CO2.

[mike wallis]

I bought my first fiber hoping that it would completely eliminate Cermark from my vocabulary. It is safe to say that I was mostly disappointed with the results based on that assumption. If you need a black mark then a fiber is really not the way to do it, certainly not the fastest way. It can be done but it takes a lot more time than you would ever take using Cermark (or Thermark). Where it really shines for me is deep marking stainless and leaving a dark mark - not black but fairly dark. This takes much less time than Cermark, especially on small jobs where it takes more time to setup, spray/brush, laser, and cleanup. I do use the fiber to do a dark mark, technically called "staining" NOT annealing, fairly often on small plates instead of Cermark.

As for the laser itself - you won't have the same capabilities with a gantry fiber as you would have with a galvo, I would expect dark or deep marking to be so time consuming that you'll wish you were using Cermark instead! The only benefit you have with a gantry fiber is working area, but with the limitations vs galvo it's just not worth it in my opinion.

Supposedly there is a way to use Cermark with a fiber but so far nobody seems to have come up with the settings that actually work.

You mention toxicity when sprayed - have you tried brushing instead? I was an advocate for spraying for years but have recently found that brushing works really well if you practice a bit and focus on getting a thin, even, coat. Best of all, no mist in the air to breathe!

Gary, when brushing the cermark have you done this for larger panels (12x12" or larger)? Also was this for photos? I've found for photos using Thermark if it's not completely even then it tends to have darker areas in the image where it was thicker.

[Gary Hair]

Scott, that's good to know; I'm also considering my options. So, what DO you use the fiber for that makes it worthwhile?

It may sound ridiculous but I'm debating between moving towards adding sublimation to our services vs adding another laser and trying to grow that way.

Really research sublimation before you make that decision. I did sublimation for about 8 years. It was fairly lucrative but I make way more money per hour, and less headaches per hour, with lasering. If you want to sublimate you really need to buy equipment in the top end of the price ranges, the middle and bottom will really drive you crazy, even worse than lasers will! From fiddly equipment, fiddly inks, specially coated items, and color issues, it's truly a pain in the neck... or lower. If you do get it dialed in, it's really nice but there are so many variables that you may never get there.

I have a UV printer that does 95% of what I could do with sublimation and I was never happier than the day I rid myself of sublimation.

[mike wallis]

I'd say the fiber has very specific things it does well. Large panels isn't one of them in my opinion. Deep engraving on a large panel, deep enough to color fill, is even worse.

The fiber is good for small things, in my opinion. It does great at anodized aluminum and various plastics. Engraving white polycarbonate for example, it does amazing, or black matte finish acrylic. Lots of things it does well, just large, deep engraving in metal isn't one I'd consider. Yeti cups isn't something I'd do on a fiber either. Not saying you can't do it, but rather it's easier and a better result on the CO2.

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.

[Gary Hair]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.

For the price of a top end gantry fiber, you could buy a galvo fiber from Jimani that have a movable platen that would allow you to do very large pieces. Talk to Jim Earman and see what he has to say - besides being one of the most knowledgeable people about fiber lasers, he is a pretty nice guy that will give you all the info you need to make a good decision.

[Gary Hair]

Gary, when brushing the cermark have you done this for larger panels (12x12" or larger)? Also was this for photos? I've found for photos using Thermark if it's not completely even then it tends to have darker areas in the image where it was thicker.

yes, I have brushed very large panels with Cermark. If you thin it enough and use a foam brush, it's pretty easy to get a very even coat. I've never used Thermark so I don't know if either one is more forgiving than the other, but unless you get it really thick, Cermark seems to do really well. If you can't get brushing down with that large of a panel, I'd use a medium size sprayer and rig up some kind of exhaust system.

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks for the feedback Scott. The consensus seems to be that the fiber gantry systems just don't do well with large panels time wise. I thought that if we went with a 50 watt it would help but I'm not sure if that will make the difference. Our average size piece is 8.5x11" and would take roughly 1.5 hours on a Fusion fiber 50 watt using an etch setting. Our largest piece 18x24" i'm guessing would take between 3-4 hours. If I could get a Galvo to do it I think we can almost cut the time in half however the issue with the galvo is the max piece size we can work with. Thanks for your invaluable feedback it is greatly appreciated.

Before I'd drop $50K in a gantry fiber laser (or any fiber laser), I'd explore chemical etching for that type of work. Make the negative, put it in, let it do it's thing, rinse it off and be done with it.

Honestly, while what the fibers will do is impressive, if my bread and butter work was removing metal deep enough to paint fill, I wouldn't be lasering any of it.

[Scott Shepherd]

Here is the type of panel that I say fibers aren't good at doing (gantry or galvo). In my opinion, cermark does a much better job.

Metal Marking Stainless Steel 101.jpg

And here's stuff I think the fiber lasers do great at...

Hard anodized aluminum...
EngravedAnodizedAluminum1.jpg

Anodized aluminum
Laser Engraved Anodized Aluminum 113.jpg

[mike wallis]

Thanks for the pics Scott. Question, can you use the vector feature on the gantry type to etch the outline/border? In essence create multiple vector lines close together for the system to go around instead of rastering.