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Thread: Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

  1. #1
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    Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

    Allow me to preface this post by saying this is not meant to be a post hating on Veritas tools or their commitment to quality at all - I have purchased almost all of the planes they offer (I'm not particularly affluent, so this means I need to save up/sell other tools to be able to afford them) and have had very few concerns with their tools in the past.

    I recently purchased a shooting plane with a PM-V11 blade in store, only to come home and find one of the interior surfaces had a big dent and was missing some paint (it was obvious enough that I wondered how it passed QC). It didn't affect functionality at all, but for a $400 plane (in Canada) I expect something perfect, so I returned it.

    I ordered another one online in early February, as they were sold out in store, and just received my plane today. Unfortunately the plane is quite a bit out of square along its length - not a little bit, but a lot (See pictures). I tried it against 3 of my most accurate squares just to be sure. In addition, the blade was also ground considerably out of square. In normal circumstances, I would return the plane immediately, but they are sold out online and in-store until mid April, and I've been wanting to get to use this plane since early February. I'm also a little disappointed that two planes with obvious flaws were allowed to go out to customers.

    So how important is it that the sides are square to each other? I know I can adjust the blade to be square to the shooting board, but there will be enough of the blade unsupported do to the side and sole being out of square that I can picture it affecting the smoothness of the way the plane functions. Any thoughts?
    20170315_224004.jpg20170315_222052.jpg20170315_222641.jpg
    Last edited by Hasin Haroon; 03-16-2017 at 1:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hasin, send it back. Sorry.

    While it is possible to adjust the blade with the lateral lever, or even grind the blade out-of-square to match the sole, the fact is that the side/sole will be out-of-square to the workpiece. That makes lining up more difficult. It's not worth the angst.

    Contact LV. You know they will take this seriously and, in the light of the history, do what they can to expedite a quick replacement.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  3. #3
    Very sorry this has happened to you, Hasin-it can be really frustrating when you need a tool and it isn't there-does not work.

    On the other hand, a sweetly running tool can be such a joy. Ironically, my two best planes came through the hands of other creekers-Steven Newman found me a type 15 Stanly #6 in an antique store that is nothing sort of amazing. Visiting woodworkers in my shop put down my L-N #4 Bronze and pick up the #6, and keep using the #6....

    The other one is a Mitre plane I got from Andrew Pitonyak, my shop mate Brian builds a lot of guitars and repairs guitars, this thing works phenomenally well on guitar fret boards. It also works well for tuning up joints and shooting.

    So I would echo Derek...you want this plane to be really right and sweet to use....Good luck!

  4. #4
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    Hasin, as stated above LV will take care of you. It's an investment you'll use for a very long time, so waiting a little longer to get it right is worth it, IMO.

    I recently ordered the shooting plane as well and when I first read your post I was confused because they indicated no delay in shipping. Then I remembered...I ordered the LH version. I guess there are a few advantages we south paws have from time to time

  5. This is not really a cosmetics issue that you'll want to ignore or fix painlessly, or a personal preference issue where you tune a tool to suit your body and work habits; as good as they are, the folks at LV are human and once in a rare while, things are not as they should be. Contact the LV customer service folks and let them make this right. They take care of their customers and will likely want to investigate how you got two duds in a row. Enjoy your plane once you get things sorted out... that one is going to be included in my next letter to Santa.

  6. #6
    Agree. You can count on LV. Rob Lee and his team never fail to impress me. They do not want you to have a tool that is substandard. Call them and they WILL make this right.

    I noticed last week that shooting planes are out of stock until 4/15. It crosses my mind to wonder if they might already be aware of the problem and put a hold on sales until they inspect every one on the shelf....

    Fred

  7. #7
    Since you are from Edmonton and if the store is nearby, simply bring it to the store and it will do an exchange (if stock is available) on the spot or will have a new one shipped to you with no shipping cost. Otherwise call its 1800# (customer service).

    Simon

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the advice and suggestions everyone, greatly appreciated. Derek, you have a great point about the side being out of square to the board, and for a precision tool like this that would throw everything off. Chris and Phil, I know what you mean about a perfect and perfectly set up tool, and you're right, it's an investment that I hope to enjoy for decades so I want it to be just right.

    I think I remember seeing in another thread that Rob Lee said the orders and backorders are dealt with on a first-order first-serve basis, so I was a little worried about returning it in-store and re-ordering and being sent to the back of the line (the plane is out of stock in Edmonton, and Online until mid-April).

    So I called customer service, gave them the entire history of the two defective planes and asked if I could get one processed soon (before Mid-April). They asked that I send the out of square plane back so they can investigate. They did say that they don't have any in stock until mid April, except for one unit at the Ottawa store that they just might be able to test and get to me. If they are able to do that I should receive it within a couple weeks, otherwise it'll just have to be another month's wait.

    In any case, I suppose I'll receive it eventually sooner or later. It sounds like the next tool I receive will be inspected with extra scrutiny so it will be perfect, but I wish it would've been a smoother experience overall.
    Last edited by Hasin Haroon; 03-16-2017 at 4:07 PM.

  9. #9
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    After the Rowden woodworking school broadcast email this morning the timing of this post is MOST unfortunate.
    It seems LV's attempt to save face with their planes has failed, Rowden thoroughly trashed their planes.

    I checked my planes today and sadly Rowden is right. Both my jointer and jack BU planes no longer have a flat sole, the jointer markedly so. They did when I bought them 8 years ago. I spent hours with large sheets of 600 grit taped to my very flat table saw side table. I covered the bases in black marker and watched the heel toe rub down as I 'figure 8' the planes.

    To see that today and then see a shooting plane that out of square is horrible. There can be no serious quality control.

    Rowden's premise was that Veritas planes don't stay flat, they move with time. It seems the school and students no longer use them.
    He was not happy with their blade irons either.

  10. #10
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    I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.



    A comparison of the side wall strength on the Lie Nielson hand planes.

    https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/41...d-bench-planes

    The side wall strength of an earlier designed Stanley No 5 Bench Plane.

    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 03-16-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    After the Rowden woodworking school broadcast email this morning the timing of this post is MOST unfortunate.
    It seems LV's attempt to save face with their planes has failed, Rowden thoroughly trashed their planes.

    I checked my planes today and sadly Rowden is right. Both my jointer and jack BU planes no longer have a flat sole, the jointer markedly so. They did when I bought them 8 years ago. I spent hours with large sheets of 600 grit taped to my very flat table saw side table. I covered the bases in black marker and watched the heel toe rub down as I 'figure 8' the planes.

    To see that today and then see a shooting plane that out of square is horrible. There can be no serious quality control.

    Rowden's premise was that Veritas planes don't stay flat, they move with time. It seems the school and students no longer use them.
    He was not happy with their blade irons either.
    William, from one that has had a lot of time with the Veritas planes (I have been part of pre-production testing for many years now), I find your comments concerning. So I went to my shop and took some photos of my planes. In short, the soles were dead flat. Now keep in mind that I have had some of these planes a dozen years, such a the BU Jointer ..

    BUJ.jpg

    The LA Jack ..

    LAJ.jpg

    BU Smoother ...

    BUS.jpg

    Here's a recent addition, the Custom #7 ...

    Custom7.jpg

    I think that you will agree that the soles are all flat - there is no light shining under the straight edge (A Starrett rule).

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are your planes working as they should?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.

    [snip]

    A comparison of the side wall strength on the Lie Nielson hand planes. [snip]

    The side wall strength of an earlier designed Stanley No 5 Bench Plane. [snip]
    Nonsense Stewie. You clearly have not even looked at the Veritas planes, or you do not know about their construction.

    Notwithstanding that the Veritas and LN planes are built from ductile iron and are not built from grey iron, as the Stanley planes are, all of which means that you are comparing apples with oranges here ... the construction of the Veritas planes is different in two important ways ...

    Firstly, if you look below, you will see that the side walls of the Veritas plane (here the Custom #4) is twice the width/thickness of the Stanley and the LN ...

    Side-walls.jpg

    And secondly, if you look at the bed of the Stanley vs the Veritas Custom (which are the planes you pointed out were deficient in design ...), then you will also notice that the Stanley bed is flat, and the Veritas bed is rounded/convex - and twice the thickness of the Stanley ...

    Beds.jpg

    And lastly, I have a few Stanley planes, which I treasure and use. ALL of them needed to have their soles flattened. Even the Bed Rocks.

    William, I have no idea why your planes are not flat. I suggest you take it up with Lee Valley - they will be concerned and want to sort this out. I am not a spokesperson for them, but my involvement in testing and the reviews I write do lend me a sense of responsibility to ensure that there is factual information being presented. Perhaps others here would do the same as I did with their planes and report back?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 03-17-2017 at 1:36 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    I am certainly no mech engineer, but if you look at the lack of continuity within the side wall strength of the Veritas designed hand planes, it should be of little surprise the sole is going to continue to move over time.

    I thought the same thing when I first saw the new models- especially the jointer. That said, their shooting plane is a beast. I have it, and the sole is probably 1/2" thick in the reinforcements around the edges, and the sole to base (sole being the upright part on the shooting plane) is a hefty transition.

  14. #14
    Thanks for the clarification Derek. Was wondering the same thing. Could not test my planes as I am away.
    Ductile steel is very stable as it is. Storing the plane on the sole would exert even pressure around the sole itself. Not causing it to deform!

    Maybe someone dropped it before hence for this to happen.

  15. #15
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    As mentioned, I am not a mech engineer, but the following article on the stability of Ductile Cast Iron is an interesting read. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...2150931401538X

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