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Thread: Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

  1. #76
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    Derek,

    I do now

    I agree with you about the pleasure of using very high quality tools and machines. It soothes the soul, even though we know that it is all to often overkill in a home shop.
    .

  2. #77
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    This thread is a treasure trove of great info. Thank you for all the insights.

    To defend myself a bit, here were my train of thoughts: "Oh crap, I can see light through... it seems to be a large gap... (hunting for feeler gauge) oh but it's only ~0.005"... but I've seen that thread on SMC and his pics didn't look as bad as mine..." and the rest is history.

    I'm actually not very picky when it comes to precision. I've been shooting with #7 as I bought off eBay (almost as is, only rust removal) and it has been working fine for me (even with a cracked levercap if you recall my earlier thread). (This Veritas plane however put a whole new perspective on shooting experience...) So, this was more of did-I-get-what-I-paid-for issue for me. This plane is by far the most expensive tool I purchased to date (including all my (bought used) power tools). So, I hope you can see my sensitiveness to it. If I knew Veritas' tolerance is 0.005" I probably have never bothered to contact them. Heck, I might even cancel the replacement based on what I learned on this thread.

    Now, for my squares being truly square, probably not. But I'd like to think a brand new 2" square from LV (which I happened to buy at the same time as the plane) has got to be pretty accurate due to its size.

    What is curious to me now is the validity of the "light" test for flatness or squareness. Do we even need to attain "no light" precision on our woodwork? How much light do you allow to come through when you run a straight edge or square against a piece?
    I guess high precision in joinery work would make your life a whole lot easier. I was genuinely surprised how small the gap was when it appeared so much light is coming through...

  3. #78
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    Kesh, I don't think you need to defend your return to anyone but yourself. As for the light test, in general with my planes I check them across the sole at various locations along the sole. I will usually see a little bit of light at various locations coming through, but as long as it isn't consistent along the length it doesn't bother me. As for the shooting plane I received, the gap progressively got wider across the plane (as out of square things tend to do).

    As for the engineering tolerances, most of us know that there is no such thing as dead square for our tools. Having said that, I think it is a little bit of a stretch to suggest that we need to go to a professional machinist every time we want to test a tool. E.g., I have a few 'precision' squares and straightedges, claimed to be within 0.002" along the entire length, carefully stored and never dropped. So if I rip a piece of wood, test the edge for flatness and test a couple of my squares to see if the lines diverge or not, I can be satisfied that my square is square enough (or not) for good woodworking results. If I then test a plane and find it well out of square, all the way along the length, I can be pretty certain that plane is out of square.

    Unfortunately it just so happened that the only planes that I want to be as close to square as possible are my shooting plane and shoulder planes and skew rabbet, as these are the only ones that matter (I don't use my other planes for shooting often). I do own the other planes mentioned, and they pass my square test, but the shooting plane didn't.

  4. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    ... the carpenters used his measuring tape to check my template ...
    I dimly recall a 2nd hand reference that said tapes and rules in the USA are only required to be accurate to +/- 3/16" in 6 feet. The article primarily looked at the legal aspects of measuring - i.e. if I sell you a 2x4 or a cubic yard of gravel, does my tape say its big enough, but yours doesn't(?). Same applies to all weights and measures devices involved in custody transfer situations.

    'Close' only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and atomic bombs. And tape measures - - which explains a lot about home building: 3 guys (2 of 'em blind), with 5 different tapes, chalk for a marker, and a CS with no bearings left in it, are building your next house right now. And you wonder why the front door sticks.

    It has been too long since I read the article, but the lesson for me has always been if I want accuracy in a project, I use the same tape or rule for every measurement possible. It doesn't guarantee that the parts will be the right size - only that a given measurement will be the same. (OK, OK! ...Almost the same.)

    And for what its worth, I'd be more inclined to use a LN plane body to check my squares for square than the other way around.
    Last edited by Malcolm McLeod; 03-23-2017 at 11:20 AM. Reason: Accurate being defined per NIST-traceable references.

  5. #80
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    Always best to use a measuring tape only when the actual measurement need not be precision. I use a measuring tape regularly to make a standard and use the standard as the guide for repeating. Making frames, for instance, no one cares if they're 40-5/8" when ideally they should be 40-9/16", but they need to all be the same after the first is made.


    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    The 7" Vesper Square has a maximum deviation of 0.010mm or 0.0004".


    • Regards from Perth

      Derek (putting in a plug for Chris Vesper )
    I know you're putting me on a bit.....but I can't help but defend my position since you're putting words in my mouth, so to speak.

    What I'm not saying is that accurate squares don't exist, they obviously do. What I am saying is that you dont know how accurate it is, you're assuming and most everyone is going to make an assumption of accuracy at some point and verify them through repeatable results. Even a machinist is not likely to check his checking devices, but he may well check his mics and calipers against his checking devices.

    When I worked in the machine shop, the thing you never did was change micrometers mid way through a job, if you're checking a tolerance with a mic you use that same mic every time until you are complete. Even if your mics were all set to the same standard it would be poor practice.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  6. #81
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    I guess I said "dead flat" in my previous post. I agree, should have said "pretty darn flat for wood work". I have a friend that machines parts for the government...titanium parts for satellites, special forces night vision goggle frames, and other stuff he probably doesn't talk about. I suppose he could tell me if my plane was even more darn flat...but, your point is well taken...doesn't really matter to that degree.

    Given your experience Keith, and what my friend needs to adhere to, makes you kind of wonder where the phrase "close enough for government work" comes from

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Luter View Post
    You paint with a pretty broad brush here.

    First of all, I doubt that General leaves castings outside for two years when normalizing will serve the same function at a fraction of the cost of tying up two years worth of casting production. They're making saws, not wine.

    Secondly, the fact that a non-compliant product left the factory indicates a breakdown in the Quality Management System (QMS), but not a lack of understanding of the ISO standard or a quality management system. A properly run ISO registered QMS anticipates that non-compliant product will be produced. Even six sigma zealots will agree that the combined six sigma under the bell curve only covers 99.7% of production. What's really important (and an indication of how their QMS is working) is whether they conduct a root cause analysis and deploy corrective actions.
    I'm on Page 2 of a 5-page thread so perhaps I'll find this mentioned in a later post. In the meantime, I have to point out to Mr. Fretwell that General (Canada) is no longer manufacturing equipment in Drummondville, QC. The International line is the only remaining element of a Canadian company that made great machinery! Secondly, I worked for LV off/on for several years between retirements that didn't take, simply because I loved the woodworking products they make. I'm confident in saying that no one cares more about quality. As I now make my living working with ISO standards, I would ask (specifically) which ISO standards are the Veritas products not meeting in terms of conformance?
    Best regards,

    Ron

    You haven't really been lost until you've been lost at Mach 2!


  8. #83
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    I'll pass on another little story about LV's concern that the customer gets what they think they ordered. Shortly after I retired in 2002 (for the first time) I jumped at the opportunity to work for LV over the Christmas season, their busiest time. I already knew their product line cold, having been a customer from the very early 80s, with a customer # in the very low 6 digits. Many of the seasonal employees had never done any woodworking so they had no idea what it meant, despite instruction, to be told that they were the final QC point in the supply chain. I distinctly remember one of the old timers pulling a filled order and taking the order picker over to the warehouse row that housed such things as router bits, dowel stock, etc. The order in question involved 3' maple dowel rods. The old timer pulled the 10 maple dowel rods the picker had packed in the order and explained the that the customer expected to receive straight dowel rods and only 3 of the 10 dowel rods picked were straight. The picker asked "How do I know which ones are straight?" The old timer explained that straight was easy to determine. Take each rod, place it on the floor and roll it. If it rolls smoothly, it's straight. If it doesn't, set it aside (outside the box so no one else will pick it!) and keep going until you have enough to fill the order! As a woodworker, I had done that automatically but it was interesting to note that this QC issue had been caught by an order packer, passed on to one of the grey beards and then transmitted to the picker. I saw this same process many times in my numerous stints working for LV. They really DO care, all the way down to the person picking the order!
    Last edited by Ron Kellison; 03-23-2017 at 3:05 PM.
    Best regards,

    Ron

    You haven't really been lost until you've been lost at Mach 2!


  9. #84
    Glad to hear this story Ron. Thanks for sharing it!
    Fred
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Kellison View Post
    I'll pass on another little story about LV's concern that the customer gets what they think they ordered. Shortly after I retired in 2002 (for the first time) I jumped at the opportunity to work for LV over the Christmas season, their busiest time. I already knew their product line cold, having been a customer from the very early 80s, with a customer # in the very low 6 digits. Many of the seasonal employees had never done any woodworking so they had no idea what it meant, despite instruction, to be told that they were the final QC point in the supply chain. I distinctly remember one of the old timers pulling a filled order and taking the order picker over to the warehouse row that housed such things as router bits, dowel stock, etc. The order in question involved 3' maple dowel rods. The old timer pulled the 10 maple dowel rods the picker had packed in the order and explained the that the customer expected to receive straight dowel rods and only 3 of the 10 dowel rods picked were straight. The picker asked "How do I know which ones are straight?" The old timer explained that straight was easy to determine. Take each rod, place it on the floor and roll it. If it rolls smoothly, it's straight. If it doesn't, set it aside (outside the box so no one else will pick it!) and keep going until you have enough to fill the order! As a woodworker, I had done that automatically but it was interesting to note that this QC issue had been caught by an order packer, passed on to one of the grey beards and then transmitted to the picker. I saw this same process many times in my numerous stints working for LV. They really DO care, all the way down to the person picking the order!
    About caring for their customers, I completely agree based on my personal experience. In my earlier years of woodworking, before I knew any better, I asked them some questions about a product that appeared "sub standard" to me. After the conversation I was convinced the product was just fine. The Customer Service agent insisted that I could easily return if I was not happy with it. I almost had to convince him that it was not necessary. In fact, that interaction early on had a big impact on my loyalty to Lee Valley. They absolutely have me as a customer for life. I wish there were more companies like Lee Valley that cared so much about their customers, their employees and their culture. In addition to excellent tools and support, I do care a lot that they value their employees so much. In fact, if they did not, I doubt they would be able to deliver the products and the service that we enjoy.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    William, from one that has had a lot of time with the Veritas planes (I have been part of pre-production testing for many years now), I find your comments concerning. So I went to my shop and took some photos of my planes. In short, the soles were dead flat. Now keep in mind that I have had some of these planes a dozen years, such a the BU Jointer ..

    Attachment 356248

    The LA Jack ..

    Attachment 356249

    BU Smoother ...

    Attachment 356250

    Here's a recent addition, the Custom #7 ...

    Attachment 356251

    I think that you will agree that the soles are all flat - there is no light shining under the straight edge (A Starrett rule).

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating - are your planes working as they should?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Derek your light is not positioned to shine under the ruler opposite the observation side, how do you hope to see light?
    I still have not found my feeler gauges but when I first did it on my jointer the gap evoked a "good grief" that's a gap. I have had several sessions with 600 grit taped to my flat side table. The front 5 inches has now lost all 'grain' in the steel, it is very smooth. The toe back 2 inches is smooth also but more on one side. The middle gap is now smaller but I would love it to touch right behind the blade, some way off yet. Black marker shows the story and confirms the ruler. I do wonder if my recent tear out problems with some difficult black walnut is related. My Veritas planes are over 10 years old.
    When I edge joint I use 2x 1000W halogen flood lights right behind the joint. I can eliminate all but a sliver of light & get a very good joint. I am interested to see if that process is easier when I eventually get the plane flat. It has become an academic exercise really at this point as my enthusiasm for bevel up planes has waned, both jointer & jack.

    When I get some free time I will try some Japanese planes. My old Bailey Jack plane with a breaker and three ideal points of contact does a very good job, the adjustment is more finicky however.

  12. #87
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    Hi William

    The photos I posted were simply to display what I did to check for light/straightness. There was no light to be seen from various angles.

    I used enough light. Indeed, I would disagree that one requires "2x1000w halogen flood lights" to see relevant light. Indeed, too much light may exaggerate minor irregularities.

    I am not denying your experience was different. My intention was to contrast yours with mine.

    With regard flattening planes, you write: I have had several sessions with 600 grit taped to my flat side table. The front 5 inches has now lost all 'grain' in the steel, it is very smooth. The toe back 2 inches is smooth also but more on one side. The middle gap is now smaller but I would love it to touch right behind the blade, some way off yet.

    William, flattening immediately behind the blade is unimportant. Flattening in front of the blade is very important. Behind the blade has no impact on the cutting action. In front of the blade is quite different, however. Are you sure you meant it the way you wrote?

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. #88
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    Hasin, after a few trial runs on various scraps, I must say it is worth the wait. I modified my shooting board with a side guide ala Derek Cohen. As with Derek's design, the holes for the bolts are slotted so I can make it a good fit and adjust in the future if necessary (slots are actually hidden by the washers).

    I could shoot fine with my LAJ, but this is one of those tools where the task becomes exponentially easier with excellent results.

    IMG_0459.jpg

  14. #89
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    I agree, touching just in front is more important to control the depth of cut, on a plane as long as a jointer touching behind helps also as it has more flex. Right now touching anywhere between the heel & toe would be good.
    The grinding at the toe end is slow now as it's so smooth, I keep vacuuming the 600 grit during each session. I am fortunate to have these huge sanding belts to cut up. They are German made, very high quality.
    The base on my BU Jack is all over the place with highs on diagonal opposites, distinct lows, while being roughly flat across it's length so I'm hopeful that will flatten out eventually.

  15. #90
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    Do you guys know that you can see as little as .0001" (One TEN THOUSANDTH) of an inch of light, emerging from under a square held against a slightly out of square surface?

    Many squares themselves are not made to those specifications. And,unless the surface you are checking isn't SMOOTHLY ground fine enough, light will STILL be seen under the square. LV and LN planes are certainly ground fine enough!!

    It is good to have your own "Bureau of Standards" in your own shop. Mine consists of an ultimate granite straight edge 2' long,2 black granite squares(which sit upon a granite surface plate, and look like book ends),All steel squares made by Starrett and OLD Brown and Sharpe,from 2" to 24", and 3 hand flaked cast iron flat straight edges, Called "Camel Back" straight edges in the machinist trade, from 18" to 4'. And, four hand flaked cast iron surface plates, and a black granite surface plate, and a 4' precision ground steel straight edge. I left out a 6" cylindrical steel square. A number of Chris Vesper squares, too. The Vesper squares checked out o.k. against my 6" mint Starrett steel square. Chris has a cylindrical square that he uses. It sets upon a black granite surface plate,and is a very accurate type of square. Generally used in a laboratory setting.

    For your information, a PINK granite surface plate is considered the ultimate, as it has a lot of quartz in it, making it harder to wear out. One, except for a small one, has not come my way. I'll never even come close to wearing out my black granite one !!!

    If you want to be SURE of your findings,you need to acquire at least a few of these tools if possible. I'd say the most important things for you would be at least a few precision squares. Chris Vesper makes precision squares. I'd choose the ALL METAL versions rather than the wood inletted handle ones, as wood can swell a bit,or shrink(the swelling is what MIGHT slightly throw off the beam's squareness to the handle (Chris might argue that point! And, it is a nit picking one, as the wood isn't that thick, to be moving metal).

    I have been lucky to get these precision tools for a fraction of what they retail for.The 24" squares retail about $2500.00, or so. Unfortunately the man who ran the used machinery business, where I acquired 99% o my things is going out of business tomorrow. Too bad. But I have too much stuff as it is!

    Anyway, acquire a GOOD STEEL square or two for yourself. I don't mean aluminum ones either. Steel should be your choice, and NOT a cheap $15.00 import.The only thing I use one of those for is checking the squareness of the tool rest against the belt of my Square Wheel belt grinder. I could open a business of checking people's squares and straight edges for accuracy. But,I'm just too tired and HATE mailing things.

    As a historical sideline,it is interesting that the ancient Egyptians used black granite to make their master measuring rule. Every year, all the carpenters had to come to the palace and have their measuring STICKS checked against the granite master. Even then, they had a bit of "Bureau of Standards", and for more things than the measuring sticks. I don't know what happened to the unlucky guy whose measuring stick wasn't accurate enough. I'm pretty sure the stick would be destroyed. I hope the owner wasn't beaten!

    In the middle ages in Germany, a traveling Brew Master would arrive yearly to test the beer being made locally . He would pour a little beer on the chair he sat upon for a certain length of time. When he got up, if his pants didn't stick to the chair, the local brew master would be flogged!! I suppose they thought the beer needed to have sufficient "substance" to it to be nutritious. I know that seems like a strange way of doing things, but people had their own way of doing things back then. Medieval people were very AFRAID of clocks, for example. They thought that clocks MADE time, not just record it. They were afraid they'd get old if they hung around the clock much!! This is a true story. Don't dismiss it.
    Last edited by george wilson; 03-24-2017 at 10:13 AM.

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