Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 345678910 LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 145

Thread: Veritas Shooting Plane quite a bit out of square. How important is this?

  1. #91
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    350
    Glad to hear that Phil, I've no doubt I will be chuffed with the replacement I receive. I'm going to make a new shooting board for it, and have been thinking about the shooting plane track Veritas sells, and whether it is worth it or can be easily replicated using UHMW tape instead. What does your plane ride on, and how do you find it?

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    3,222
    I just used melamine covered particle board for the base (the shelving stuff you can get at the big box stores). Both it and the plane are regularely waxed. I thought about getting the track as well, but what I have now to seems to work very well. Might pick up some UHMW tape at some point.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    372
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Do you guys know that you can see as little as .0001" (One TEN THOUSANDTH) of an inch of light, emerging from under a square held against a slightly out of square surface?

    Many squares themselves are not made to those specifications. And,unless the surface you are checking isn't SMOOTHLY ground fine enough, light will STILL be seen under the square. LV and LN planes are certainly ground fine enough!!

    It is good to have your own "Bureau of Standards" in your own shop. Mine consists of an ultimate granite straight edge 2' long,2 black granite squares(which sit upon a granite surface plate, and look like book ends),All steel squares made by Starrett and OLD Brown and Sharpe,from 2" to 24", and 3 hand flaked cast iron flat straight edges, Called "Camel Back" straight edges in the machinist trade, from 18" to 4'. And, four hand flaked cast iron surface plates, and a black granite surface plate, and a 4' precision ground steel straight edge. I left out a 6" cylindrical steel square. A number of Chris Vesper squares, too. The Vesper squares checked out o.k. against my 6" mint Starrett steel square. Chris has a cylindrical square that he uses. It sets upon a black granite surface plate,and is a very accurate type of square. Generally used in a laboratory setting.

    For your information, a PINK granite surface plate is considered the ultimate, as it has a lot of quartz in it, making it harder to wear out. One, except for a small one, has not come my way. I'll never even come close to wearing out my black granite one !!!

    If you want to be SURE of your findings,you need to acquire at least a few of these tools if possible. I'd say the most important things for you would be at least a few precision squares. Chris Vesper makes precision squares. I'd choose the ALL METAL versions rather than the wood inletted handle ones, as wood can swell a bit,or shrink(the swelling is what MIGHT slightly throw off the beam's squareness to the handle (Chris might argue that point! And, it is a nit picking one, as the wood isn't that thick, to be moving metal).

    I have been lucky to get these precision tools for a fraction of what they retail for.The 24" squares retail about $2500.00, or so. Unfortunately the man who ran the used machinery business, where I acquired 99% o my things is going out of business tomorrow. Too bad. But I have too much stuff as it is!

    Anyway, acquire a GOOD STEEL square or two for yourself. I don't mean aluminum ones either. Steel should be your choice, and NOT a cheap $15.00 import.The only thing I use one of those for is checking the squareness of the tool rest against the belt of my Square Wheel belt grinder. I could open a business of checking people's squares and straight edges for accuracy. But,I'm just too tired and HATE mailing things.

    As a historical sideline,it is interesting that the ancient Egyptians used black granite to make their master measuring rule. Every year, all the carpenters had to come to the palace and have their measuring STICKS checked against the granite master. Even then, they had a bit of "Bureau of Standards", and for more things than the measuring sticks. I don't know what happened to the unlucky guy whose measuring stick wasn't accurate enough. I'm pretty sure the stick would be destroyed. I hope the owner wasn't beaten!

    In the middle ages in Germany, a traveling Brew Master would arrive yearly to test the beer being made locally . He would pour a little beer on the chair he sat upon for a certain length of time. When he got up, if his pants didn't stick to the chair, the local brew master would be flogged!! I suppose they thought the beer needed to have sufficient "substance" to it to be nutritious. I know that seems like a strange way of doing things, but people had their own way of doing things back then. Medieval people were very AFRAID of clocks, for example. They thought that clocks MADE time, not just record it. They were afraid they'd get old if they hung around the clock much!! This is a true story. Don't dismiss it.
    I gotta say, I love your posts. They are so fun to read!
    USMC '97-'01

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    Thanks George. While I can not justify anything like your test equipment I am very familiar with tolerances and measuring. My classic science training was excellent. My engineer father worked to 1/10 of a thousandth of an inch. Scratches on stainless steel only have to be as deep as the wavelength of light to be visible. I am quite familiar with laser diffraction particle sizing for medical uses, particle sizing in injections etc.
    Luckily wood is friendlier than metal and moves more. The gap under my ruler was of the order of "you can see what the neibours are doing!" I do have a very good metal machinist square and some decent straight steel rulers. I would not fuss over a sliver of light.
    All production has errors that we can live with as opposed to a higher tolerance we can't afford. The modern photographic lens with 20 elements is a great example. Each element has a tolerance which has a cumulative effect on the optics. The scatter graph of the final lens performance is most illuminating, making it a bit of a lottery. Sigma have developed lenses with slightly more but simpler elements giving a much tighter scatter graph and stunning performance at lower prices. I wish they made wood working tools.
    LV have to keep costs down and I'm sure it's cheaper to just replace defective product than test 100%. Customers resenting being the final tester for an expensive tool is nothing new.

    Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
    When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
    What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.

  5. #95
    Derek,
    Thanks for posting this video-made my evening! ;^)
    Randy

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Neither here nor there
    Posts
    3,831
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post

    Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
    When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
    What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.
    He should have asked them to fix the one big fault- it's the ugliest car they ever made.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Interesting true story: A guy I worked with had a father with a standing order for a Rolls Royce Camargue each year. Every year after delivery he would find 30 or so small faults with the car and insist they were fixed. He was a generous man and on vacation he saw a couple on honeymoon at dinner. He sent over a bottle of excellent Champagne as a gift and thought no more about it.
    When his next Rolls Royce Camarque arrived he set about finding the faults. It drove him nuts as he could not find a single one!
    What he did find was a note in the glove box from the head of quality control at Rolls Royce, the lady at the dinner table, "thanks for the Champagne". He discovered later she had personally checked over his car before it left.
    Great story!
    I'm with Malcolm - ugly car.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  8. #98
    After seeing this thread I checked mine for squareness across the sole vs the side. I would say it is out by about 0.005". I did not use feeler gages but I guess it is in tolerance.

  9. #99
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    DuBois, PA
    Posts
    1,898
    Quote Originally Posted by Izzy Camire View Post
    After seeing this thread I checked mine for squareness across the sole vs the side. I would say it is out by about 0.005". I did not use feeler gages but I guess it is in tolerance.
    Now the million dollar question: were you satisfied with the plane before reading this thread and if so, did reading this thread change your opinion?
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    Now the million dollar question: were you satisfied with the plane before reading this thread and if so, did reading this thread change your opinion?
    Right on the mark Tony.
    Izzy, don't let it bug you - put that tool to work!
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  11. #101
    Yes I have been happy with the plane and I will continue using it. I must say I was somewhat reluctant to check it because I like it.

  12. #102
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
    Posts
    1,502
    Another session with 600x paper taped to my flat table. My BU jointer is still concave with a gap big enough to see the neibours. Just for fun I thought I would sharpen the 25 degree A2 blade Japanese style until it was flat across the whole surface removing the 'hand bevel'.
    Two solid hours later (OK 1 tea break), you realise you have found a new form of meditation. Another hour it should be good.
    If I want to do woodwork a bit more often I have to get a grinder to hollow grind the bevel but I hate those things.
    Simple fact; for the same wear BU is a lot more sharpening.
    Western grinder=Japanese laminate
    Last edited by William Fretwell; 03-29-2017 at 7:05 PM. Reason: More

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Vienna, Austria
    Posts
    168
    I have similar picture of my shooting plane and Incra square:



    It was posted in other thread some time ago: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...97#post2524697

    In my case, I did send it back to fine-tools.com (Germany) but they returned it to me saying that it is within the tolerance. If you invert the test and measure how much the smaller sole is out of square from the big one (which of course is not how it is used) then you will see smaller gap. The shop in Germany said that it is less than 0.003" that Veritas guarantee it to be.

    So, I still have it like that. I just altered the track where my shooting plane is moving by sticking on one side of the run some UHMV-PE tape... Unfortunately, that also prohibits me from using it outside of shooting board, like shooting long grain on the bench. I use Custom #7 for that instead.
    Last edited by Andrey Kharitonkin; 03-30-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  14. #104
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Marina del Rey, Ca
    Posts
    1,934
    Why wouldn't you hand lap the angle precisely square?
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  15. #105
    When I first started woodworking (pre-Internet days), I trusted what I read or watched and faithfully followed the advice that you had to start with stock that was milled flat and square...dead flat and dead square as some would say. That blind belief had caused me a lot of money as I chased after machines and hand tools that in the end couldn't deliver the kind of stock that I wanted! It wasn't the machines but my skills (or the lack of them) that kept me from producing flat and square stock. Then later, through had-earned experience, I found out that I didn't even have to start with stock that was truly flat and square...at least not to the kind of tolerance that we measure with a feeler gauge. The concept of flatness and squareness is important for joinery work, but not much so for other things. For example, when I fit cabinet doors or drawers, the critical thing is to get an even reveal around, regardless of if the case or the door is dead straight. Our eyes can be easily deceived.

    Don't trust me? Check the most admirable, heirloom furniture piece (cabinet, table, and whatnot) you have bought from a store with a straight edge and a square and you would be surprised with your finding.

    You can spend days squaring/flattening your tools and can still end up producing less than satisfactory work, if your skills are the weakest link.

    Simon

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •