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Thread: Studies on old chisel steel?

  1. #1

    Studies on old chisel steel?

    Do you guys know of any studies on actual "best" quality old steel chisels to answer questions about what made them good?
    alloy including carbon content
    actual grain size of the steel within he tools after heat treatment
    Heat treatment and hardness?

    Reason I ask is that I keep reading over and over about how good some of these old tools were. And no doubt some percentage of them were exceptional.

    And we we don't see anybody really taking a swing at making really high end chisels like they are doing with knives. A $100 western chisel is currently "high end" where $2,000 is hitting "high end" with hand made knives in the USA..

    and I find it pretty ironic... Flesh is exceptionally easy to cut with a very coarse edge. Bushcraft stuff is more challenging.. But a fairly coarse grain structure and relatively soft steel cut exceptionally well. But yet chisels - which really can make actual use of the benefits of steels, grain structures, and heat treatments are "crude cutting tools"....

    I started thinking about this after reading the PMV11 alloy threads - and reading a bunch of knife making info by fellows like Ed Fowler - who has been making hunting knives out of forged 52100 to a 14.5 grain size (ultra small) and a hardness in the low 60's... But it doesn't seem like anybody is doing anything like this with chisels... And nobody seems to be connecting the dots.

  2. #2
    Here, something to read:
    http://preserve.lehigh.edu/cgi/viewc...66&context=etd

    And the current really expensive high end chisels are probably Japanese.

  3. #3
    When you say "old" what dates did you have in mind. The ability to accurately control the constituents of steel didn't develop until the late 1800's so steel varied from batch to batch prior to that. Additionally, the heat treating of the final product was done by eye and depended upon the quality of the worker. So old steel products - 18th and early 19th century - were not consistent. After the fact, you could tell if it was a good product (a chisel, for example), but I expect that every company had variation in the "quality" of their products.

    The people who make steel today know what makes good steel and they can produce that steel consistently. If you take any two PM-V11 chisels, for example, you'll find that they are essentially the same.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #4
    There are lots of threads here and other places on this subject. To try the quality of a good chisel from second half of 19th century ,I suggest the W. Butcher brand. Easy to find on ebay. Most who have tried the PMV 11 say they are superior to to old stuff. I think the most important thing to remember is that some of the new stuff is low quality; some say that is done intentionally to protect maker from law suits from the possibility of user eye catching a flying steel chip.

  5. #5
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    I don't know about all that "Modern Steel Marketing Hype" but, seems to me that old Henry Disston seemed to do very nicely making steel for his line of tools. Since about...1840s.

    The OLD Sheffield steels were world renowned. Long before the hyped "super steels" of today's latest and greatest steel.....which will change when someone else brings out the next "steel" sensation....

    Not sure, but I think them old blacksmiths MIGHT have had a clue as to what made a good steel. Consider how many YEARS one had to train, just to be good enough to work for the toolmakers of the day. Drinking beer for lunch? Hey, it was better than the water back then.

    Can something than is neither forged, nor cast be called Steel? Hey, plastic is also molded the same way. So is the AL cases for Honda's Transmissions.

    Other than the new Aldis, the rest of mine are ...Butcher, Buck Brothers, Witherby, and others that are made in Germany.

    The old tool makers that WERE consistant back then, stayed in business, those that weren't..quickly went out of business. Just the way things were then.

  6. #6
    Five years ago Derek Cohen got me started buying 19th century English chisels when he made a remark about them being inappropriate for study because they were unavailable. Since then I have bought seven such chisels. Five of them predate 1850.

    All seven have superb steel. They are very easy to sharpen. I never want to go back to the o1 type steel; just too much time sharpening and lower quality to boot.. The older chisels take a very fine edge, and hold it for a long time, without chipping or folding.

    I have approached two high quality blacksmiths about making chisels and I did not flinch when one mentioned $200 for a chisel. Neither one has made a chisel for me, however. And whenever I meet a blacksmith I ask if they make chisels. I have seen a few recently made chisels that look like they would be appropriate for a cabinetmaker, but I don't know if they perform like the early 19th century.

  7. #7
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    I have an 1850's draw knife and found the same as Warren, the steel is excellent and the wrought is very high quality.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #8
    It's interesting to read Ed Fowler's comments about forging very high carbon steel at low temperatures from large billets (he forges a very thin blade fillet type knife starting from a 6" diameter billet..). His comments are that you don't get the grain growth or decarburization at the low temperatures.... He then goes through a series of quenches and temperings that include freezing to complete the hardening process.

    And I can't help but think that this sounds strangely like the same sort of way you might have to forge out the old high carbon cast steels because of their high phosphorous and sulphur levels..

  9. #9
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    What came to mind as I read the OP's question is simply, most high-end knives today are collectible art. Not many people will be carrying a $2000 knife as an everyday carry. Whereas a $100 chisel is a tool meant to be used not put in a display case. The chisel may need to be sharpened several times a day while the high-end knife may never touch a stone.

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    They're often good knives, the thing is, a blade smith,just like any other profession, is going to spend their time making what pays the most given whats available to their field. It takes multiple chisels to match the same pricing as one knife and the knives are likely more readily purchased.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Five years ago Derek Cohen got me started buying 19th century English chisels when he made a remark about them being inappropriate for study because they were unavailable. Since then I have bought seven such chisels. Five of them predate 1850.

    All seven have superb steel. They are very easy to sharpen. I never want to go back to the o1 type steel; just too much time sharpening and lower quality to boot.. The older chisels take a very fine edge, and hold it for a long time, without chipping or folding.

    I have approached two high quality blacksmiths about making chisels and I did not flinch when one mentioned $200 for a chisel. Neither one has made a chisel for me, however. And whenever I meet a blacksmith I ask if they make chisels. I have seen a few recently made chisels that look like they would be appropriate for a cabinetmaker, but I don't know if they perform like the early 19th century.
    Its not logical to think that 'old steel' is always better than modern steels. What is logical is to think that only old tools with good steel can still be acquired on ebay for example. I think the likely reason is that old tools that were not good enough got melted down and used for something else during the war for example. Only the better examples still remain. They are, like Derek had noted, hard to come by. Its also not logical to think that modern steels aren't better on the whole than old steel. I am not saying fine examples of old steel don't exist, just that its ludicrous to assume modern steels aren't as good.

  12. #12
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    Not much about chemistry was known till about 1830. Then,it is still just the beginning. I have 3 chemistry books by the same company. The first is from the 1860"s and is about 1 1/4" thick. The 1903 edition is over 2 1/2" thick.

  13. #13
    I think most people are referring to the non-premium brands when they are talking about "better" old steel for many tools. They may also be talking about fit and finish. There is more control today as far as what goes into steelmaking for large production, but ultimately you are dealing with a "sharp-hard-tough-flexible" whack-a-mole problem. I would wager a good sum that some of the best knives that may hold a very fine edge forever cutting flesh or tomatoes will not fare well being pounded through hardwood. It is a balancing act that is tailored to suit the needs of the user.

    I am not saying that they have this egg cracked, but chisel makers aren't likely going to make some huge stride that hasn't been tried with today's materials. And when something new comes along, it will still have the same whack-a-mole issues whether it be sharpenability, cost etc.

  14. #14
    I think the big problem today is that the manufacturers are not aiming in the right direction, not that they could not make a good chisel. I see videos by manufacturers who obviously hardly know how to use a chisel. The quality of the chisel is somewhat limited by the quality of feedback provided by users. It isn't so unreasonable to assume modern chisels are not as good if the modern makers don't know what a good chisel is like. It similar to the famous violin maker who lives in Brooklyn. He could make violins in Vermont or Florida, but he wants to be in New York so he has better access to the finest violins and the finest players in the world. Interaction and feedback.

    Some of the older tools I am using look like they haven't been used in a century or so, but they all perform exceptionally.

    You cannot argue that Wonder bread is superior to older styles just because the makers understand chemistry or the ovens have better thermostats. The Wonder bread makers are simply not aiming for the same thing as the brick oven crowd
    Last edited by Warren Mickley; 03-20-2017 at 9:20 PM.

  15. #15
    So it sounds like No... Nobody that we know of has done the studies to figure out why the best chisels of Ye Olden Days really are so good...

    If I had access to a lab that could do the tests... Here's where I would start:
    alloy
    carbon content
    grain size
    hardness
    Crystal structure of the carbon/steel matrix

    Is there anybody here who has access to the lab equipment that could start to tell us some of these things.

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