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Thread: Lie Nielsen Blades Not Staying Sharp

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Williamsburg,Va.
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    12,402
    I only scanned all these responses. However I will mention that if the name on the blade is "etched" into the steel to some depth,the blade is A2. A2 is an air hardening steel. LN now uses A2 steel,unless you somehow got an OLD iron, which is not likely. All the air hardening steels (That I have tried) will DECARB on the surface unless protected from the air, while hot, by being in an inert gas filled furnace,or by being wrapped in stainless steel foil. If not,the steel will decarb,sometimes to about 1/32" deep ( Or so it seemed).Air hardening steels require higher hardening temperatures than 01 or W1 oil or water hardening steels. These are the types f tool steels you might see a blacksmith using,and heating it in the open air. Even so,they had the old motto "If you would a good edge win,forge thick, and grind thin".

    I am wondering if your blade was not protected from air while hot. By hot,I mean clear up to the critical temperature needed to harden the steel. That would look like an orange heat to the observer.

    Once you grind the bevel back till hard steel is reached,it should be alright. Test the edge with a NEW FINE CUT FILE. If it readily files the edge,the steel is too soft,and you must be in the decarbed area. The file should NOT file the iron when the fully hardened area is reached.

    NOW,IF THE IRON was exposed to air over its entire outer surface,the WHOLE IRON may never have a hard edge,because the whole skin of the blade is soft. NO MATTER how much the bevel is ground back,you will still have a cutting edge that is soft,because the entire surface of the iron was decarbed.

    IF that blade does not get hard and stay sharp SOON, after you've ground away at least something over 1/32", pack it up and return it to LN. It is TOO DEFECTIVE,and cannot be made to ever take a sharp edge,and hold it.

    I did not ever have an inert gas furnace,but used the high temperature type of stainless foil(there are 2 types). To insure that the SMALL amount of oxygen still inside the stainless wrapper did not decarb the air hardening steel within,I wouldf put a piece of BROWN(no clay) paper inside the envelope,the size of a SMALL postage stamp. About the size of a nickel,only square. I had to be careful as a too large size piece of paper would blow a hole in the stainless wrap. The stainless wrap is VERY DELICATE at full hardening heat. Sometimes,though it IS NOT the usual,or the RECOMMENDED thing to do,I'd put a little KASENITE(case hardening powder) inside the envelope. I never had any noticable trouble with blades I did that to. Kasenite added carbon to the surface to harden the surface of LO CARBON mild steels. But,only several thousandths deep. Again,I had to be careful how much I added,as the Kasenite would turn into a gas,and pop the stainless envelope open. If that ever happened,the parts inside would be ruined.

    But,using stainless wrapping took time,and it isn't real cheap,so an inert gas furnace is the best answer. Things thus protected from the air would come out bright and clean,not blackened by the heat,and the air. I'd even wrap 01 and W1 parts,which would not decarb to any appreciable degree,if I wanted those particular parts to be kept bright.
    Last edited by george wilson; 03-27-2017 at 9:12 AM.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    DuBois, PA
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    1,898
    Two additional comments George: first, I don't believe Kasenite is on the market anymore. There is a product that is similar, and if I remember correctly, it is called "Cherry Red". I'm in my office and miles from my home shop, where I have the product, so, if anyone wants to know the name, PM me and I'll respond tonight. The product is available from MSC.

    Second, be very, very careful with the stainless steel foil wrap! It is razor sharp (don't ask how I found that out!).
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by John C Cox View Post
    This is a dumb question and all... But if sandpaper worked so well - why are you in a big rush to drop a pile of cash on a set of water stones? Those stones take ongoing maintenance to keep them flat, happy, and crack free....

    The huge advantage of sandpaper is that its disposable. Dull a piece and you just throw it away.. Go stick on a new piece.

    Theres no flattening and deglazing and bathtubs of water to keep them happy...

    If you iust want water stones - then go get them and be happy.. But previous to buying a worksharp - my best sharpening decision ever was going from stones to sandpaper.
    Brian hit it on the head. Much more expensive in the long run. Also a pain to keep the paper stuck down and it wears down fast. I'd rather pay more now to save later. I'm very much so in the camp buy once cry once.

    I ordered Shapton pro 1000, 5000, and 10000. The 1000 was out of stock everywhere, I have it back ordered and should be shipping Friday. In the mean time I'll be working on polishing all of the lower grit scratches off my blades. Thanks again guys.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Broadview Heights, OH
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    711
    A couple random thoughts.

    What George notes above about foil is right on point. However, technology has changed on the foil front. Check out: http://www.swagedies.com/mm5/merchan...ry_Code=HTREAT

    I've used it to make some custom chisels and irons and it is great stuff. No need for foil, sacrificial carbon or anything of the like. Just heat the part slightly, shake on some of this stuff so the part it covered, let cool and put in the oven to heat soak.

    Second, there is no need to go to all these lengths with your iron. Even an edge made with 220 grit sandpaper will stay sharp if the steel is hard enough. LN is not selling plane kits, he is selling top dollar planes that are supposed to work out of the box. The ultimate way to determine if your iron is too soft is to measure it. Look very closely at your plane iron. Is there a tiny dot that looks like a punch mark on the iron near the cutting edge? Could be on the front or the back. It will look like a tiny dimple, if there isn't one, it means your iron likely wasn't tested for hardness and could be faulty. If there is one, then it could still be faulty if the machine was not set up and ready properly,

    I have a Wilson Hardness tester and will gladly test one of your irons if you want to ship it to me and put a return postage paid label in the box. Hardness is the ultimate proxy for quality. If your iron tests at 40 on the C Scale, it's never going to get hard enough to hold an edge. Could have been all the carbon migrated out like George noted, or more likely could have been improperly tempered and most of the hardness has been removed. Only way to know is to test.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Texas Hill Country
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    94
    These guys know a lot more about metal than I do, so great knowledge here.

    Just musing, my first thought was that you should leave off the strop, when one over strops, and folds the edge, the blade may cut for a few strokes then stop cutting.

    Regards,
    Andy

    mos maiorum

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    A couple random thoughts.

    What George notes above about foil is right on point. However, technology has changed on the foil front. Check out: http://www.swagedies.com/mm5/merchan...ry_Code=HTREAT

    I've used it to make some custom chisels and irons and it is great stuff. No need for foil, sacrificial carbon or anything of the like. Just heat the part slightly, shake on some of this stuff so the part it covered, let cool and put in the oven to heat soak.

    Second, there is no need to go to all these lengths with your iron. Even an edge made with 220 grit sandpaper will stay sharp if the steel is hard enough. LN is not selling plane kits, he is selling top dollar planes that are supposed to work out of the box. The ultimate way to determine if your iron is too soft is to measure it. Look very closely at your plane iron. Is there a tiny dot that looks like a punch mark on the iron near the cutting edge? Could be on the front or the back. It will look like a tiny dimple, if there isn't one, it means your iron likely wasn't tested for hardness and could be faulty. If there is one, then it could still be faulty if the machine was not set up and ready properly,

    I have a Wilson Hardness tester and will gladly test one of your irons if you want to ship it to me and put a return postage paid label in the box. Hardness is the ultimate proxy for quality. If your iron tests at 40 on the C Scale, it's never going to get hard enough to hold an edge. Could have been all the carbon migrated out like George noted, or more likely could have been improperly tempered and most of the hardness has been removed. Only way to know is to test.

    I may take you up on that offer if I still have problems.

    I'm starting to think my problem is burr removal. When I raise a burr, my succeeding honing rarely (if ever) made it fall off or reduce it. Usually after my final honing the bevel, I still have quite a burr to remove from the back. Could this be the root of the problem? Maybe I'm having a false edge of sorts and only straightening the burr out?


    I got the stones because I realized how lack luster my set up was, not as a magic bullet. I also ordered Hocks book on the perfect edge trying to educate myself further. I think the burr was done better when I moved to sand paper and that was why I got a better edge.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Longview WA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Chevalier View Post
    [edit]
    I got the stones because I realized how lack luster my set up was, not as a magic bullet. I also ordered Hocks book on the perfect edge trying to educate myself further. I think the burr was done better when I moved to sand paper and that was why I got a better edge.
    Like everyone else you will see the road to sharpening nirvana is a long journey. What seemed sharp to me a few years ago now seems like a good starting point on an edge.

    There are many different techniques and methods of sharpening. Something can be learned by looking at all of them. In the morass known as the wide world of sharpening theory you will hopefully find some little gems of knowledge that work best for you.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    South West Ontario
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    1,502
    Adam, it seems your first step is to re-do the sharpening from the start. Flatten an inch of back, go through all the stones until it is polished, forget stropping. Do the same to the edge, use a guide if you have one to eliminate that variable. At a high enough grit (8000x) or above the remaining burr will be so fine it will come off or a slight movement of the back on your highest stone will remove it.
    If you have been creating a large burr, not removing it and rolling it by planing then that's very fixable.
    I would not use a diamond sharpening system above 1200x. They are so aggressive and its very easy to use a water stone at higher grits.
    Try abrasive papers glued to glass to see if you can get an edge. George's file test would tell you a lot. There is a lot you can do to fix this before you blame the steel. We all go through intense learning experiences periodically. Years back I was convinced I needed a particular diameter file to sharpen my chainsaw properly; I was wrong.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,209
    Adam, I see your stones are for sale over in classifieds. I hate to see somebody come here for advice, and then spend a lot of money on something they don't end up being able to use. Are the stones not working for you, or did you find another solution so that you don't need them? Are your edges still giving you trouble?

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Williamsburg,Va.
    Posts
    12,402
    Pete: I am aware that Kasenite has been off the market. But,I still have some. I don't think "Cherry Red" is as good a product. I am VERY GLAD to see the Corbin,however!! Lower heat treating steels than A2 were able to get by with hi-temp engine enamels. Not A2,though. I'll have to order me a bottle of that new stuff!! Thanks for mentioning it. That is a VERY VALUABLE TIP,INDEED!!!! Now that I'm retired,I am sort of out of the latest news on new products.

    Yes,the foil is sharp and dangerous to work with. I have had my share of cuts,too! And,it is impossible to get it tight enough around he object being heat treated to NOT still have some air inside the envelope. Hence the little bits of paper,and a GUESS of how much paper is just enough to burn up all the oxygen,but not burst the envelope(which I HAVE had happen a few times!) It will be VERY NICE to not have that happen any more!!!

    As a last note,the Corbin @ $42.00 is a LOT cheaper than the high temp foil @ $200.00(?) (I still have a supply of that,too. The price has always been obnoxious !) And,it will go farther than a roll of the higher temp foil,it looks like. So,many thanks for mentioning it!!!!!!!!! I'll tell my friend and co-worker Jon. I think I'll order a bottle later today,after Oregon wakes up!! Jon is always making damascus knives,and I did call him before I added on to this post. He was very glad to hear about it!!

    Kasenite will not penetrate as well as aquarium charcoal,which every pet store carries. It is full of microscopic holes,which aids greatly in the generation of gas to case harden the steel. I DID get a 1/32" deep coating with aquarium charcoal once,by heating the parts in a crucible of it for about 2 hours. Kasenite is only good for a small case. I used it in the envelope as a precaution sometimes.
    Last edited by george wilson; 04-06-2017 at 10:05 AM.

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