Dust Collection & PVC

[Jim Dwight]

I have a 14x24 shop garage - smaller than yours by a significant amount. My smallish table saw stays pretty much in the middle with a 2x7 workbench/outfeed/assembly table/track saw table behind it. On the long wall without windows (like where you have shelves) I have a CMS and RAS side by side on a long table with movable stops. I have had something like that in the last shop too. Floorstanding drill press is at one end. Other tools get rolled out when used. Works well. The table saw and crosscutting tools are used the most and do not have to move much. Router table and lunchbox planner just move out a little for use. Jointer is a bit more of an effort, probably needs a better home. The crosscut bench has a couple dozen drawers for lots of storage.

That doesn't directly address your DC question but I think it's really more of an issue to get your tools located. DC follows. I recommend not gluing the joints and just using some metal duct tape on the joint. It will not leak and will be sturdy and if you need to move things it is much easier.

I had a DC in the last shop but just use a shop vac with cyclone in this one. Not much space for both a DC and shop vac and the little tools need the vac.

[Craig Shewmake]

Craig,
I see your in Las Vegas area as well. I got my 6" thin wall S&D pipe from Horizon Distributors on south Arville. The fittings are very expensive there though. I ended up ordering the fittings from McMaster Carr.

Jay, I cannot thank you enough for the references. I called Horizon the other day and the guy says they don't sell ASTM D2729. So I started calling around and could not find the pipe anywhere locally. I found several places online that have it but the shipping costs doubled the price. I wanted to go all white rather than use the green thicker SDR-35 pipe you get at Lowe's for cosmetic reasons. Arrrrghhhh

So after about a dozen calls I am talking to a distributor in Phoenix and they tell me that they don't sell to the public but one of their customers is Horizon in Las Vegas. Hmmmmmm. So I called Horizon again and was told they have over 200 ft in stock. It turns out I had called the Henderson outlet and they don't stock it and the numbskull there didn't reference me to the Arville location.

So all is good! Less than half the cost of the green stuff at Lowe's. I also ended up going McMaster Carr for the fittings as they had everything I needed in one order.

So thank you again, I owe ya!!!

So I have ordered all the pipe, fittings, blast gates, and hardware. Now the fun begins. NOT!!!


Craig

[Chris Padilla]

My local Horizon here in the Bay Area is where I got all my 2729 pipe and McMaster Carr is where I got all my S&D fittings from. I think everyone here pretty much has you covered. Run 6" as far as you can. If you need to neck-down, you should build yourself a taper fitting rather than doing an abrupt change. Building tapers/reducers out of sheetmetal isn't that hard once you learn a few tricks. I also use the Lee Valley self-cleaning gates: work great! If you end a run in a wye and want to put gates on each leg, be sure to give yourself enough clearance to open AND close BOTH gates!! For turns, use two 45s. Separate them x" if you want but I think I just butted mine. Two 45s are a lot cheaper than a long-radiused 90. I don't know how you're mounting your system but mine is bolted to the rafter in my garage and I hung it from vibration hangers. Google 'em. It keeps the noise from traveling too much along the wood and into the house HOWEVER, the DC does bounce around a wee bit so hard connections to it might not work super well over time. All connection from my cycle to duct (inlet, dust bin, exhaust) are done with flex.

[Craig Shewmake]

My local Horizon here in the Bay Area is where I got all my 2729 pipe and McMaster Carr is where I got all my S&D fittings from. I think everyone here pretty much has you covered. Run 6" as far as you can. If you need to neck-down, you should build yourself a taper fitting rather than doing an abrupt change. Building tapers/reducers out of sheetmetal isn't that hard once you learn a few tricks. I also use the Lee Valley self-cleaning gates: work great! If you end a run in a wye and want to put gates on each leg, be sure to give yourself enough clearance to open AND close BOTH gates!! For turns, use two 45s. Separate them x" if you want but I think I just butted mine. Two 45s are a lot cheaper than a long-radiused 90. I don't know how you're mounting your system but mine is bolted to the rafter in my garage and I hung it from vibration hangers. Google 'em. It keeps the noise from traveling too much along the wood and into the house HOWEVER, the DC does bounce around a wee bit so hard connections to it might not work super well over time. All connection from my cycle to duct (inlet, dust bin, exhaust) are done with flex.

Thanks Chris. I think I am good to go. I too went the Horizon for pipe and McMaster Carr for the fittings route thanks to Jay's advice. The guy at Horizon was cool and gave me his boss's discount so I got 50 ft of thin wall 6" for $65. I did get 45's and a couple extra 22.5's in case i need a little playroom with some angles. All three of my drops will have the Clear Vue 6x4x4 Y's with built in blast gates. Well see how those work out. So one drop 1 will go to table saw with 4" flex to base and 4" flex to blade guard. Drop 2 will go 4" flex to the jointer and 4" flex to the planer. I have 2 wye's coming off drop 3 both again with the Clear Vue Y/Blast gate combo's. I will have one of the Wye>Clear Vue Y> flex lines go to the bandsaw base and the other 4" flex to the bandsaw table top. The other Wye>Clear Vue Y> will have both 4" flex lines going to the two dust ports on the combo sander. The only bummer there is those sander ports are 2" so i have 4x2 reducers there. I am using a Fernco rubber coupling to attach the ducting to the Cyclone.

For now, I am just going to get it built and see how it works. Hopefully I will not have to make too many mods. I'll basically end up with 6" from the Cyclone to all three 6" drops which all culminate to the Clear Vue Y's that have two 4" flex lines to machines . With all the blast gates I would think I should be able to get decent enough collection at any machine with some experimentation on which to close and open for best results.

If not, a hand grenade may be in order.

Thanks again to all who have chimed in. You have saved me lot's of time and hopefully lots of mistakes.

Craig

[Craig Shewmake]

Just thought I would come back with some pics of the "finished for now" system.

I ended up going 6" 2729 PVC as the main line and drops to ClearVue 6x4x4 Y/Blast Gate combos.

Here is the 6" PVC coming from the DC. I went out strait with it as far as I could before angling towards the ceiling:


After hitting the ceiling I didn't have to go far before branching to the band saw & sanders and dropping to the table saw:



The line continued straight to the Jointer and Planer Drop. I put the blast gates higher than recommended but had to so I could move things around and actually get my truck in the garage!



The band saw and sanders drop down goes all the way to the floor where I out in a floor sweep. I have two blast gate/Y's on the drop. One splits the 6"" and goes to the bandsaw. The other goes to the two ports on the sander. I had to reduce 3 of the 4" ports to 2" due to tool considerations. I can always mod the top; ports later if more volume is needed.



I was worried the 1.5 HP Dust Collector wouldn't be powerful enough. No worries now. It is more than adequate. I was also worried about the noise and I was quite surprised in a good way. I had previously milled several ash boards on the jointer, table saw, and planer. This is the result prior to the DC.



I did another batch of the same exact milling steps with the dust collection running and less than a handful of sawdust hit the floor. Opening and closing different blast gate combinations creates some interesting results. In other words, leaving some open at tools you are not using actually helps with the flow at the tool you are using and throughout the systems a whole.

Thanks again to all who offered up the invaluable suggestions and tips. You all saved me a lot of time.

[Bill Dufour]

I would aim the dc inlet more to the tablesaw and less towards the jointer. The tablesaw makes fine dust and needs more airflow then a jointer. I would make a straight run towards the TS and a wye off to the jointer. I do not see any hookup for the planer?
Air flow needed is more for planer, tablesaw, sander and a little less for bandsaw and jointer.
Bil lD.

[Craig Shewmake]

I would aim the dc inlet more to the tablesaw and less towards the jointer. The tablesaw makes fine dust and needs more airflow then a jointer. I would make a straight run towards the TS and a wye off to the jointer. I do not see any hookup for the planer?
Air flow needed is more for planer, tablesaw, sander and a little less for bandsaw and jointer.
Bil lD.

You must have been looking at the original post. While that plan was the first drawn up it changed some. The only reason the thread showed up on top again is that I thought I would add some pics of the finished project.

The table saw is the first drop down and the dc works great. Almost too good with small work. I just split the 6" into two 4" with gates as shown in the above pics. Not ideal to have that much flex I know but I had to compromise a little for portability. I am happy with the results.

[Chris Parks]

I agree with Don. Run the 6" all the way to the machines then split or reduce if needed. I ran 6" S&D from my 5hp cyclone. At the bandsaw, for example, I split it into three 4" ducts for the upper, lower, and table collection. I have five drops with the longest run probably 45 ft from DC to the machine.

I don't know what DC you are using but for mine they recommend a 4-5' straight section leading directly into the cyclone. When I needed a 90-deg change in direction I substituted two 45-deg fittings for a much gentler turn. In some places I even used several 22.5-deg fittings. My installation was quite an engineering challenge since I snaked everything through the trusses above the ceiling.

Attachment 357393 Attachment 357394

I bought all my pipe from a local large plumbing supply wholesaler. I bought all the fittings through the local Ace Hardware for less than the plumbing supply prices. (I had to ask for them and order some but they always came the next day.)

JKJ

It has recently been proven by research in Australia that two 45's flow less that a single 90 bend, surprising but true. In Oz all we use is thin walled PVC as metal ducting is all but unknown here.

[Bill Jobe]

It has recently been proven by research in Australia that two 45's flow less that a single 90 bend, surprising but true. In Oz all we use is thin walled PVC as metal ducting is all but unknown here.

Not at all surprises me. Every glued joint ( or dry fitted) pvc has small areas that do not create a smooth curve....they create turbulence.
While I know very little about the movement of air I do know a bit more about the movement of water.
One member posted a pic of a setup with a sharp 6" 90 at the top. I would love to see how it would compare with a long sweep 90 instead.

Also, unless I missed it it, while 2 4" pipes do not flow as easily as 1 6", if flex is used for the 4" only I'd bet it would take 3 flex hoses to equal 1 6" straight pipe. Perhaps
more

And that is the extent of my knowledge.

[John K Jordan]

It has recently been proven by research in Australia that two 45's flow less that a single 90 bend, surprising but true. In Oz all we use is thin walled PVC as metal ducting is all but unknown here.

That's interesting! I've studied turbulence and laminar flow and all I can say is it's too complicated for my feeble mind.

The big question: What are the numbers for the flow? (is the difference significant or "just barely"?)

Please provide a reference for that research. ("Proof" without reference is just rumor!) I did a google search and have not yet found the study you mentioned. I did find some interesting discussions and a telling picture, here for a sharp bend on a tee:
flow through tee.jpg
https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...e-bend.185436/
(Those physics guys are entertaining!)

Was the OZ research done with S&D ducts and standard fittings? What was the duct size? Did they test with multiple sizes? (The ratio of cross-sectional area to circumference goes up significantly as the radius increases which may make a huge practical difference depending on the air speed.)

One cure for inefficiencies might be a more powerful cyclone. So far the 5hp ClearVue exceeds my expectations. Perhaps a 2 or 3 hp machine would be unsatisfactory for my duct work. If it works...

JKJ

[Larry Frank]

I also would be interested in the research but am not surprised. The inside of pipes when using two 45 pieces is rough with several places which would disrupt flow compared to a 90 turn. I have used both in my shop depending on how I have to go around things.

For the layout used a 1.5 hp dust collector is really marginal. It would be interesting to see actual flow numbers. A lot of flex hose is used and the distribution boxes where there are two hoses connected are will result in significant losses.

[Ole Anderson]

I did another batch of the same exact milling steps with the dust collection running and less than a handful of sawdust hit the floor. Opening and closing different blast gate combinations creates some interesting results. In other words, leaving some open at tools you are not using actually helps with the flow at the tool you are using and throughout the systems a whole.

Interesting conclusion. Is it based on flow tests? Opening another gate will reduce the amount of air at the tool being used as the DC can only flow so much air. Less air normally means less dust collection at the tool.

[Bill Jobe]

I found the same to be true when I first began using my new HF dust CL . The noise was unbelievably loud. I had placed the cap provided to close one of the 2 4" intakes that join just prior to the intake at the collector. While trying to remedy the problem I began by taking the side plate that covers the fan. That took care of the unbarably loud noise.
Screwed it back on ....the noise came back. So I removed the cap provided and my problem was solved.
The motor was being starved. I then added a second 4" flex hose and mounted both behind the piece on the chuck and all was well. I noticed that the first hose that barely pulled any dust in was suddenly doing a much better job, as was the 2nd.
The performance of the DC far more than doubled.
I'd like to understand why if there's someone who understands such things.

[Andy Giddings]

Interesting conclusion. Is it based on flow tests? Opening another gate will reduce the amount of air at the tool being used as the DC can only flow so much air. Less air normally means less dust collection at the tool.

Would agree with Ole - would like to see some flow measurements as I'd also expect (and have measured the same on my DC) the flow to drop at the previously open port

[Bill Dufour]

I need a 5" to 6" reducer since my Murphy Rogers blower was 5" and all the pipe I could find was 6". I made it from a piece of 6" pipe about 18" long. I did the math and cut a wedge out of one side. Then I put it in boiling water to soften it up. Used hose clamps and welding gloves to make the taper. After it cooled I glued on some scrap along the join.
Bill D