Tool buying ethics?

[Christopher Charles]

Ed's story highlights that the ethics depend in part on the expectation of the seller. Many on-line/mail order retailers presume a higher rate of return as part of service since items can't be handled in-store. If you're thinking about it, ask the vendor before purchasing. If you don't, and return used when not part of the terms, I agree with Stan.

[Don Slaughter]

I think it is perfectly ethical and practical for anyone to return a purchased item for any reason that person has.....considering that the seller does not provide for local distribution site. The seller does not have the overhead of property to house the sale and is using the postal service as his medium. It is, IMHO, ethical to recognize and abide a time frame for sale to be complete. Any return subsequent to that time frame could be fairly subjected to agreed upon terms.

[Stanley Covington]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest. Is this using the shoes? And therefore unethical? How would I decide on the fit without trying them on my feet? How is it different frim buying in the shop?Compare this to the plane. Hone the edge carefully and run it on your shootingboard a few times to get a feel for the plane. In the LV shop you would be allowed to try the plane too when you ask nicely. Where exactly is the moral limit? In my view, if you don't damage the plane, you are still fine and won't go to bandsander hell.

Kees:No $200 for you, my friend! An eternity in a pit of swirling, grinding, overheated beltsandsers surely awaits you!

[John K Jordan]

...For a buyer to deceive the retailer by returning a tool that they have physically used, contrary to the conditions of the sale, and thereby depreciated, is unethical....

I'm reminded of the people who use Home Depot as their free tool rental place.

I found this advice on a well-known photography forum about lights for a special photo shoot: buy the fixtures and bulbs from HD, use them for the job, then return them. The guy said he did that all the time. I was stunned. I could not believe there are people who see nothing wrong with this.

I once bought a garden sprayer which had deck stain residue inside. HD said that happens all the time, people buy something, use it for their job, then return it. HD will accept a return with no questions. He said they also have a real problem with people stealing things like work gloves then returning them for cash.

JKJ

[Jason Roehl]

Well, at least we know if they're stealing work gloves, they're being returned unused...

[Frederick Skelly]

When the LV PM-V11 chisels did not work out for me, I went in for Ashley Iles chisels. There was no local place to hold them, and I could not decide between two different styles (MK II bench chisel vs American Pattern butt chisel). So I called and asked the vendor what they thought about me ordering a set of each with the intention of keeping my preferred style and returning the other set. They enthusiastically encouraged me to do exactly that. So in your example, I wonder what LV and LN would say to a call from the customer who wanted to try each vendor's plane and return one. I would bet both companies would play ball, within their respective return policies of course. The loser, if a thoughtful company, might want to know what it was that made the customer choose the other plane, and add it to their knowledge base.

By the way, the ending to the Ashley Iles story is that I received both sets and promptly fell so hard in love with both styles that I could not and would not part with either set. So the vendor, for their cooperative attitude, ended up selling two sets of chisels instead of one, no returns after all.

Ed

Good example Ed! And since the vendor agreed up front, I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with sending one set back, either.

Not surprised you kept both - they are supposed to be really nice tools.

Fred

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm reminded of the people who use Home Depot as their free tool rental place.

I found this advice on a well-known photography forum about lights for a special photo shoot: buy the fixtures and bulbs from HD, use them for the job, then return them. The guy said he did that all the time. I was stunned. I could not believe there are people who see nothing wrong with this.

I once bought a garden sprayer which had deck stain residue inside. HD said that happens all the time, people buy something, use it for their job, then return it. HD will accept a return with no questions. He said they also have a real problem with people stealing things like work gloves then returning them for cash.

JKJ

Yeah, for me personally, that's going too far.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.

I do not think trying them on and walking around the house with them is wrong. That is pretty much what you do if you go to the store. I start to wonder though at the "10 pairs", just because I can't imagine a retailer is really expecting to pay shipping both ways on nine pairs for every one it actually sells. If everyone did that, the retailer would be out of business (or the price of shoes would be astronomical).

As far as tools go, I think the answer (as with so many things) is just to be straightforward and honest about it. Call customer service. If they tell you to try it out and send it back if it is not what you are looking for, you are not cheating anybody. On the other hand, if they tell you they would rather you did not do that, then you have your answer.

[Kees Heiden]

Kees:No $200 for you, my friend! An eternity in a pit of swirling, grinding, overheated beltsandsers surely awaits you!

Ha, lungs full of dust for ever! You gotta love it 😊

[Don Dorn]

When I buy shoes online I order 10 pairs or so, different models, different sizes. Try them at home, in the house, run up the stairs a few times, etc. If one pair feels good, I will return the rest.

Is this using the shoes? And therefore unethical? How would I decide on the fit without trying them on my feet? How is it different frim buying in the shop?

Compare this to the plane. Hone the edge carefully and run it on your shootingboard a few times to get a feel for the plane. In the LV shop you would be allowed to try the plane too when you ask nicely.

Where exactly is the moral limit? In my view, if you don't damage the plane, you are still fine and won't go to bandsander hell.

I too have some trouble finding shoes that fit well. Therefore, I buy them only in the store as opposed to online. In the store, trying them is expected and a return to the shelf costs them nothing. That said, I have a sister in law that does most everything as you said. Her justification is that she lives 60 miles from the store and buys 4 things and returns three.

The only time I cross that line is construction. I buy 5 - 10% more material than I need and return what I don't use. Since I"m pretty bad at it, I rarely need to return.

[Kees Heiden]

I do not think trying them on and walking around the house with them is wrong. That is pretty much what you do if you go to the store. I start to wonder though at the "10 pairs", just because I can't imagine a retailer is really expecting to pay shipping both ways on nine pairs for every one it actually sells. If everyone did that, the retailer would be out of business (or the price of shoes would be astronomical).

As far as tools go, I think the answer (as with so many things) is just to be straightforward and honest about it. Call customer service. If they tell you to try it out and send it back if it is not what you are looking for, you are not cheating anybody. On the other hand, if they tell you they would rather you did not do that, then you have your answer.

Zalando is a big one in shoes overhere. They are huge, but making almost no profit. One wonders why they started this business at all. Most online retailers make little to no profit because of the very high retunr rate.

And when I am not morally allowed to order 10 pair and return nine, is 4 pair allowed? And if none of these 4 fits me well, is it allowed to return all 4 and retry with another load? Or is my Karma going downhill on every shipment? It seems hard to draw a line somewhere. The whole mailorder model seems flawed to me and you can hardly blame people to make use of it. Allthough returning stuff dirty and obviously used is kind of shitty in my view too.

And I agree, simply asking first won't hurt and is the easiest solution in this case.

[roger wiegand]

Why don't you just call L-N and ask them? There are real people there who will talk to you. No need to have a moral crisis.

[Pat Barry]

If I buy a tool and then decide I don't really want it, and it hasn't been in my possession for much time, say a week maybe, then I would have no problem returning it. If, on the other hand, I bought the tool, un-boxed it, sharpened it up, used it, and it didn't work as advertised or described by the manufacturer, then I would return it and expect a full refund. If though, I opened the packaging, tried it out, and just didn't like it for some reason, then I own it - there's no way I could see myself returning it - to return it, claiming a problem or not, wouldn't be right by me.

[george wilson]

The people I HATE are the ones who will buy a skil saw or other tool at Lowes,build a house with it,get the tool banged up and scruffy looking,lose the box,then take it back for a full refund. Now,THAT'S not ethical. Lowes policy lets them get away with that sort of nonsense.

You can't experience a tool bought from a catalog. I have no problem with returning a brand new,perfectly cleaned up tool from a trial use. It is the only way sometimes , that you can see if you like working with that tool.

The only time I EVER returned a "tool" was a Sears lawn mower with a little grass catching bag. It filled the bag after about 20' of mowing. But ,I cleaned the lawn mower perfectly clean,on top and underneath very carefully,let it dry overnight, and took it in its box back the next day.

I just had no use for a mower that filled the bag almost immediately. I'd have spent all my time emptying the bag rather than mowing!

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have 6 large dormers with cedar shake siding on them. Original shakes were installed by incompetents with a pin nailer (while I was travelling), so of course are starting to fail. Last year, the largest dormer required a full re-do because the installer also never heard of a "starter course". Que sera.

So, I got in full, righteous DIY-mode and bought a (coil) roofing nailer from Lowe's - fully intending to keep it due to the scope of the job and future repairs. Also bought 1 box of nails (600-count, I think). Full disclosure, I bought the cheapest coil nailer they sell - - only doing 6 dormers, not going to be a pro roofer - - (silly me!!). I struggled thru shooting the entire box of nails. I tried every adjustment, tech support call, and holding-my-mouth-right-trick I could find, but the nailer would NOT feed properly. I finished the box by unlatching, opening the slide cover, positioning the nails, close and latch the cover, shoot a nail, unlatching...... (insert sound of screaming). Perhaps 1 in 8-10 shots would feed, but I had to open and check anyway. I returned the nailer and attempted to describe the problem to the service desk. They weren't interested and refunded the entire tool purchase. Finished the dormer with a hammer and bulk nails.

?Ethics?:
I knew in the first 50 nails there was something wrong, but was hanging on a ladder 30ft up so just cursed and kept at it, trying adjustment on top of adjustment. Should I have returned it immediately? Or, does 600 nails count as 'using'? (I felt guilty about it - hence my questions.)

Should I have known not to expect the cheapest tool to work any better, and just kept it? Or, do I go back and trade up to the more expensive, functional models? (Since 'Good, Better, BEST' is the big box store's marketing strategy.) BTW, 'Good' means it lasts until you open the package.

Edit: I got curious and checked online - the retailer in question no longer offers the make/model I had issues with.