Member
My view is simple: if you enjoy this hobby or profession, and you expect to be able to purchase tools in the future, then you should expect them e supplier or manufacturer to make a profit, so as to remain n business. Knowingly taking advantage of a company's generous policy does help them. I'm like Patel on the first page, if I don't like something, I'll sell it.
If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.
Member
As I see it:
1. A manufacturer has to truly believe in the quality of his product to offer liberal return policies such as those under discussion here.
2. Whatever the return policy of a company, returns are an integral part of doing business and a business expense to be planned for and budgeted.
3. It is entirely rational and morally proper for a purchaser of a product to choose a vendor based, in part, on the return policy of the vendor since the liberal return policy is a highly visible indicator of belief in the quality of the product and commitment to customer service by that vendor.
4. It is equally rational and morally proper for a purchaser of a product to choose a vendor exclusively on a low price, despite a restrictive return policy limited to issues required by law in the jurisdiction, knowing that the restrictions are likely to be associated with a lesser quality level.
5. Far too many of us have learned the hard way that a high price alone is not a reliable indicator of quality; it may be an indicator of some other attribute. As my Pop used to be fond of saying, "It ain't always true that you get what you pay for, but it's damned sure true that you don't get what you don't pay for."
6. Any manufacturer with a liberal return policy knows up front (or very soon has empirical evidence to inform him) that there is a spectrum of customers, at one end those who push the return policy to the extreme and at the other end, those who would never use the return policy at all unless they get a product that is truly defective. See point 2, above. The behavioral spectrum of customers is quite broad.
7. The permissible scope of a return policy defines a community-wide ethical construct. A return within the scope of the policy is, by definition, ethical. A return outside the scope of the policy is, equally by definition, unethical.
8. Where within the spectrum of behaviors one chooses to place oneself is a personal, moral choice. No one else can dictate your morals for you.
Last edited by James Waldron; 04-12-2017 at 4:57 PM. Reason: clearer formatting
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Member
For me, buy it, try it. You'll know within about 10 mins if you think it's better. If it's not better, clean it up and return it in the same condition you bought it.
Contributor
Once you have used a brand new, unused tool you cannot return it in brand new, unused condition. And the supplier can no longer sell it as a brand new, unused tool. So you have devalued the item.Originally Posted by Graham Haydon
No. Unless the seller offers a free trial, it would be unethical to use and return it, unless there is a hidden defect that could not be seen without using it.
"Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."
Member
In the case under discussion, of Lee Valley, they do offer a "free trial" by defining an open return policy for 3 months. (Lie Nielsen has a comparably open policy, one that is actually a bit broader, but the "return for any reason" bit is more limited in time.) Thus, in that case, such trial use and return is ethical by definition but still subject to one's personal moral choice as to whether to take advantage of the policy after use or not. That leads to some interesting points:
1. Lee Valley benefits from many of the moral decisions related here to limit returns to defective tools; that makes the burden of returns lighter for Mr. Lee, particularly since they ship VERY few defective tools, particularly those of their own (Veritas) manufacture. On those rare occasions when a defect slips through the Veritas QA practices, they most definitely want the product returned. They don't want it out "in the wild" to damage their reputation.
2. In fact, Lee Valley offers customer service that goes far beyond the return policy guarantee, which is limited to three months. (Lie Nielsen return policy is limited to 30 days. Repair service goes far beyond the return policy for these tools as well.) Since Veritas started manufacture in 1982, I think it was, customer service for repair and/or replacement for defects of their products has been substantially perpetual. It's just a phone call/e-mail away, no matter how old the tool. I don't know how they deal with issues involving third party products they market, but I suspect they do as well as anyone. Good customer service is very good marketing. (Lie Nielsen makes an explicit guarantee for materials and workmanship for the life of the tool.)
And of course, discussions like the present one are "word of mouth" marketing, the very strongest form of marketing for any company.
Between them, the standards of customer service set by Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen set a high bar for all vendors in the woodworking tool business and serve as a model that benefits all woodworkers where ever they purchase tools. Those who fall much below the standards set by these top tier manufacturers face difficult marketing and price pressure and limited sales and profits.
As always, "you pays yer money and you takes your chances."
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Member
Look at it this way Andy. Case in point was to buy something better at shooting than the standard bench plane. I would assume LV would say the plane proposed would be "better" for the purpose described. If when using the new plane there is no noticeable "better", then why not return it and spend the money on wood? A firm like LV have always seemed exceptional and if for any reason the purchase was not right for your needs then I would expect to send it back. I would assume that would be the benefit of dealing with a firm like LV? It's the kind of service that would bring me back next time for tools. Maybe even call them before making the purchase and put forward what you propose to do? If they don't think it fair then don't proceed and nobody looses out.
James, you make a great point. I would say it's not taking advantage to use the terms they set out. Fact is most people keep the tools because they suit their needs well. The amount of returns must be tiny, so much so that any concern about ethics is pretty void.
Last edited by Graham Haydon; 04-13-2017 at 1:43 PM.
Member
Careful, there. Thanks for the kind words about my posts here, but in my "not so humble" opinion, the thought that "... any concern about ethics is pretty void" is a very difficult position; far too many of today's problems stem from dismissing concerns about ethics. If the importance of ethics is diminished, we are left with a rather chaotic society. Far too much of that sort of thing going around these days.
I think I get the point you meant, but you might consider expressing it another way. Not every one gets the distinction between ethics and morality, but I'd suggest that quite a number of our colleagues here have considered the issues of this topic a matter of considerable concern over ethics and/or morality and far from void. Your expression seems rather dismissive of their concerns, which I'm sure isn't what you intended.
Fair winds and following seas,
Jim Waldron
Contributor
I think it depends on how good a customer you are. If you are a regular customer and have a working relationship with LV then I think an occasional return after trying a tool is not a problem. I wouldn't make it a habit, nor would I do it with anything that couldn't be reworked into a "B Stock" item or something. I have done similar things with them - I have several planes, other large and small hand tools, etc and I have returned a couple of things that I just didn't care for. But I think out of 50 transactions or more I have done it twice maybe.
Its one of the advantages of working directly with a catalog company instead of finding a quick and dirty deal on EBay or someplace else. LV and a number of other very good reputable companies deserve a loyal customer base and an investment in keeping them the up front company they are. If we are all just price chasers we will lose the great 'value-add' that LV, LN, CraftsmanStudio, etc bring to the transaction. I wish LV was based in the US, but I am not going to stop buying from them for that minor reason, especially as they go out of their way to be good to their American cousins. Plus - where else can you buy perfect miniature replicas of your planes and chisels etc? I thrilled my wife with a couple of their miniature tools. They are amazing and a nice fun thing to give a fellow WW or friend.
HTH
JB
Member
It's really not that hard. If you were in business, what would you want customers to do to you? 🙄
~ Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.
Member
Stan, I can understand forsaking your evil ways, but why forsake whiskey, beer and tacos?
My own moral compass would only let me send back a tool that otherwise is what it oughta be would be if I felt there had been some kind of misrepresentation of what it could do.
I wouldn't mind a bevel up smoother but should LV or LN take a hit because I can't figure out how to use it? I mean by not risking humiliation and asking here how to use it.
-Tom
Contributor
Years ago Costco allowed up to a year to return electronic items, TV, DVD players and such. Some folks felt it wasn't taking advantage to purchase a new big screen TV just before Super Bowl and then return it just before the next Super Bowl and then purchase another big screen TV to be returned in a year.I would say it's not taking advantage to use the terms they set out.
Costco stood behind the products they sold and because some did overly "take advantage" of the terms they set out, Costco changed the terms. All the people who respected Costco and didn't have problems with their purchase have now been given less warranty coverage due to the greed of the few.
Using the terms as set out to remedy a problem is not abuse. Using the terms set out to obtain use without cost is abuse.
In the case of wanting to "give something a try" and return it if it isn't to one's liking is something one should work out with a customer service representative before any action is taken.
It would be great if there were more tools shows where potential customers could use these tools in person before purchasing.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Guest
Others have commented, in response to Ken Hatch's stated love of whiskey, beer, and tacos, that attempting to limit their consumption is akin to blasphemy. I do not want to blaspheme, but the thought of belt sanders throughout eternity scares the bejesus out of me, and I will sacrifice anything to avoid them!Stan, I can understand forsaking your evil ways, but why forsake whiskey, beer and tacos?
My own moral compass would only let me send back a tool that otherwise is what it oughta be would be if I felt there had been some kind of misrepresentation of what it could do.
I wouldn't mind a bevel up smoother but should LV or LN take a hit because I can't figure out how to use it? I mean by not risking humiliation and asking here how to use it.
-Tom
Stan
Member
Thanks James. These threads are fun. TBH I'm getting pretty lost with the semantics of this.
GH "Hello, LV. I'm thinking of buying a new plane for shooting, I'm hoping it will be an improvement over my standard bench plane. However as I have no experience of the new plane I'm worried it wont live up to my expectations. Would it be acceptable to return it after use if I don't find an improvement"
LV (assumed response) "Sure, our business model supports this. Based on what your're doing we'd recommend plane X with plane iron Y. We'll sure it'll work great. However if you don't see an improvement over your current set up after using it for an hour or so please send it back"
GH "Cool, sounds great, also could I also order item A, B and C too.
LV assumed response "Sure"
What would not be acceptable? Using it for days, damaging it, neglecting it, not preserving original packaging.
I'm not sure if that makes me moral/immoral ethical/unethical. However it is what seems reasonable to me based on distance selling. If there was a store or woodworking club nearby with plane X in question, I could try before I buy, negating the conversation with the vendor. I'm amused by those who feel compelled never to return something based on a distance purchase.
Member
Even after reading all the replies, I still think that "trying out the plane for a few minutes, then clean it up and return when you don't like it" falls firmly within the limits and the intend of the return policy. For me this is just the same as trying on a pair of mail ordered shoes to see if they fit my feet. We can't determine the fit from the catalogue, nor can we get the feel for the tool, so it's great to have this kind of return policy. This is completely different from purchasing the plane for a specific project and then returning it when the project is finished.
For those who say "Now the tool isn't new anynmore", remember that the tool was manufactured in a non sterile environment. Once it was utterly dirty and scratched and scuffed. Before packaging it was cleaned and made ready for sale. Using it for a few minutes and then clean it again, isn't taking anything away from its newness, other then the mental image of it having been on someone else's bench.
Of course when you are still unsure about the morality, a quick phonecall with the company will clear that up.
[OP]
Contributor
Good point Graham. If you put it out there this clearly, it seems honest and up front - as long as you truly intend to keep it if shown sufficient improvement.
Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 04-14-2017 at 6:06 AM.
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