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Thread: Sounds like United Airlines muffed it

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    It seems many including United Airlines do not agree with this statement.

    Sitting passively and refusing to move is not escalation. It could be considered maintaining the status quo.
    Bringing in the storm troopers is escalation.

    jtk
    And United said they handled it wrong as admitting guilt

  2. #92
    This is what happens when the guy at the top just makes it known he wants somebody to handle the problem. There was another organization that worked that way.

  3. #93
    Did you hear that a passenger on another united flight out of Texas was bitten by a scorpion in the flight cabin.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    It seems many including United Airlines do not agree with this statement.

    Sitting passively and refusing to move is not escalation. It could be considered maintaining the status quo.

    Bringing in the storm troopers is escalation.

    jtk
    Jim,

    So it's your point of view that the passenger did nothing wrong? Refusing to leave the plane when United and the police told him too wasn't wrong?

    Not that I'm trying to change your mind (and I'm sure you're not trying to change mine) but I can't say that I agree with you.

    We'll see what happens I guess.

    PHM

  5. #95
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    I haven't read this entire thread but Paul's points have a lot of history to back them up. Once the police get involved, problems get solved by following their direction. If people are unwilling to follow authority, you don't have much of a working society. If he feels he was wronged, the court system is the next step.

  6. #96
    Plenty of blame to go around here. I agree with that Dr. Dao should have gotten up and left when instructed by Police. And it sure appears that the Police used excessive force, but time will tell. With all that said, UAL still caused this. They were heavy handed in involuntarily bumping paying passengers for their own crew. They appear to have done it because they could - it was easiest for the gate team. The airline rules and their company culture allowed this - eg., the foolish CEO endorsed their behavior.

    Personally, I don't care about the aircrew timing out or the downstream flight they needed to be on. Not the Consumer's problem. That's UAL flight operations' problem - and they share some of that blame too.

    The airlines have been abusing Consumers worse and worse the last few years. This incident may bring the pustule to a head. I hope so.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McGaha View Post
    Jim,

    So it's your point of view that the passenger did nothing wrong? Refusing to leave the plane when United and the police told him too wasn't wrong?

    Not that I'm trying to change your mind (and I'm sure you're not trying to change mine) but I can't say that I agree with you.

    We'll see what happens I guess.

    PHM
    There's a long history of non-violent civil disobedience in the world. Gandhi made salt when the people of India were prohibited from making salt because British companies had a legal monopoly on making salt.

    Martin Luther King lead non-violent marches to demand civil rights.

    During the Vietnam war, protestors occupied school facilities in protest of the war.

    All of these were against the law but were done to protest against what the people involved felt were wrong.

    I submit that Dr. Dao's non-violent protest against being removed from the airplane falls into this same category - a simple refusal to submit to something that he felt was wrong.

    Of course, the people who do these protest have to be prepared to suffer the consequences of their actions. But without those actions nothing would change. I'm sure that Dr. Dao did not expect that he would be dragged off the plane, and did not seek to become the poster boy for the high handed actions of airline companies, but his actions did bring the airlines' policies to people's attention and caused them to be changed.

    If he had simply gotten off the plane he would not have been injured but nothing would have changed.

    Although he was not trying to make a statement for all of us, I'm glad he did stand up for what he felt was wrong. We're all going to benefit from his action and suffering. (It's ironic that this is happening during the Easter season.)

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McGaha View Post
    Jim,

    Refusing to leave the plane when United and the police told him too wasn't wrong?
    PHM
    Sad to say but there are COUNTLESS examples of heavy handed police being wrong with their methods and decision making and this is another high profile example. Police just arrested the wrong people in this case - should have been the airline personnel.

  9. #99
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    [Once the passengers were seated on the plane, the compensation had to be greater than it would have been if they had dealt with the problem before loading.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 04-11-2017 at 11:13 PM.

    I'm with you Mike, they should have seated the crew first, then load the passengers. When the seats were full, close the door and everyone in line is bumped. No nasty scene, no bad pubicity.

    Jay

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mullins View Post
    [Once the passengers were seated on the plane, the compensation had to be greater than it would have been if they had dealt with the problem before loading.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 04-11-2017 at 11:13 PM.

    I'm with you Mike, they should have seated the crew first, then load the passengers. When the seats were full, close the door and everyone in line is bumped. No nasty scene, no bad publicity.

    Jay
    I wouldn't think that would be a good way to handle it. If you're going to bump before the people get on the plane, you can make your selection of who you plan to bump, then call them up to the desk and tell them that they're bumped and how you're going to re-accommodate them. Closing the door on the last four people who happened to be in line would not be very good public relations. Suppose a family was split by that "close the door" approach?

    The problem here is that they let everyone get on the plane and then tried to bump.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McGaha View Post
    Jim,

    So it's your point of view that the passenger did nothing wrong? Refusing to leave the plane when United and the police told him too wasn't wrong?

    Not that I'm trying to change your mind (and I'm sure you're not trying to change mine) but I can't say that I agree with you.

    We'll see what happens I guess.

    PHM
    And a quote from an earlier post:

    But the escalation came from the passenger.
    The point isn't about whether or not the passenger did something wrong.

    The point is the passenger was not the one to escalate the situation. From all I have seen, he sat quietly until they started to drag him off the plane. Most people being arrested for a criminal act are treated better than that.

    If it were for me to be on a jury to find who was at fault in this case, it wouldn't likely be the passenger.

    How much advance notice did United's operations people have in knowing they needed to move a crew to Louisville?

    This sounds like very poor planning by those who are responsible for getting crews to where they are needed.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    And a quote from an earlier post:



    The point isn't about whether or not the passenger did something wrong.

    The point is the passenger was not the one to escalate the situation. From all I have seen, he sat quietly until they started to drag him off the plane. Most people being arrested for a criminal act are treated better than that.

    If it were for me to be on a jury to find who was at fault in this case, it wouldn't likely be the passenger.

    How much advance notice did United's operations people have in knowing they needed to move a crew to Louisville?

    This sounds like very poor planning by those who are responsible for getting crews to where they are needed.

    jtk
    Jim,

    I see the doctors actions different from you.

    That United planned poorly and then negotiated poorly are clearly true. Poor planning and then poor negotiating on United's part don't give the doctor the right to not follow the orders of United and especially the police.

    In my opinion the doctors decision to not follow the instructions of United and the police led to the escalation of the event. This was the doctors decision and action, not United.

    If you're on a jury and you want to hang United go ahead, just hang them for what they actually did, which was poor planning and then poor negotiating to get the problem resolved.

    PHM

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fitzgerald View Post
    A couple things to consider. It's my understanding it's a violation of regulations to defy airline employees directions. It violates the laws to ignore or defy police when they ask you to do something. It was airport authority police who drug the guy off not United Airlines employees.

    Getting bumped is sadly part of flying. I always allow extra time when I fly somewhere.

    I dearly wish we had a rail system like Europe does, or like we once did.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hachet View Post
    Getting bumped is sadly part of flying. I always allow extra time when I fly somewhere.

    I dearly wish we had a rail system like Europe does, or like we once did.
    Mybe the rail system would be better if the US had not developed such a good system of roads like the interstate.

  15. #105
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    If you're on a jury and you want to hang United go ahead, just hang them for what they actually did, which was poor planning and then poor negotiating to get the problem resolved.
    Do not forget the excessive use of force that seems to have put some of the officers on leave and has gotten United to change their policy about deplaning passengers who have already boarded.

    United Staff Will Not Take Boarded Passengers’ Seats
    By JONAH ENGEL BROMWICH
    The airline said its policy change was intended to prevent further episodes like the one last week in which a man was violently removed from a flight.
    I do not see sitting quietly as escalation. I do see bringing "legal authority" to bear on someone who doesn't want to play the lame voucher game with a large corporation as escalation.

    It is not my belief that corporations should have more rights than the public they serve.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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