Sounds like United Airlines muffed it

[Ole Anderson]

It seems to me the issue is allowing overbooking in the first place. As long as the seat is bought and paid for, why allow them to sell it again? I don't get it. Let it go empty. As far as the crew being a last minute add-on, they should have contingency plans other than bumping seated passengers. They didn't know this before they were all boarded? While United has the egg on their face, the "good" Dr. is the one that ultimately caused the issue. I believe his "entitlement" attitude escalated the situation.

Last year my wife and I volunteered to get bumped prior to boarding, we agreed to $500 each, by the time the plane boarded, we ended up with $600 each. Our alternate flight landed 2 hours later than the original flight without the ATL layover the original flight had. We had to use the voucher within a year. No trips planned in that time frame so we took a week's trip to Cancun and snorkeled and ended up with a cheap vacation we never would have had otherwise. Ah, the advantages of retirement!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It seems to me the issue is allowing overbooking in the first place. As long as the seat is bought and paid for, why allow them to sell it again? I don't get it. Let it go empty. As far as the crew being a last minute add-on, they should have contingency plans other than bumping seated passengers. They didn't know this before they were all boarded? While United has the egg on their face, the "good" Dr. is the one that ultimately caused the issue. I believe his "entitlement" attitude escalated the situation.

Last year my wife and I volunteered to get bumped prior to boarding, we agreed to $500 each, by the time the plane boarded, we ended up with $600 each. Our alternate flight landed 2 hours later than the original flight without the ATL layover the original flight had. We had to use the voucher within a year. No trips planned in that time frame so we took a week's trip to Cancun and snorkeled and ended up with a cheap vacation we never would have had otherwise. Ah, the advantages of retirement!

The seat may not be bought and paid for. People change flights with minimum change fees, or miss connections and have to take a different flight. It's not always a no-show, no refund. I change flights all the time due to business changes. Sometimes I pay a fee, other times I had paid for refundable tickets. By the way, the cost is not much different either between the two- sometimes refundable is even cheaper than non-refundable, go figure.

If you made a law that they can't overbook, expect rates to go up. Living on an island, that would suck for me.

I will say, however, that I am changing my stance somewhat as more details come out. Certainly the authorities used excessive force and United could have offered more $ before booting a passenger. I had already said they could have offered more money, but not sure about whether this guy put up a fight or not, and now it looks more and more like he did not. Now it is alleged he lost two teeth and suffered a broken nose. Three big guys couldn't get him off a plane without busting him up?

[Jim Koepke]

I have been reading about this but haven't commented. I do not like to fly if I do not have to. On another forum someone posted this article:

It gets down to some of the nuts and bolts of the story that haven't been reported accurately.

The flight was not overbooked. It was full and United had a different problem that required them to move crew members to Louisville.

I think someone may have mentioned FAA regulation 14 CFR 250.2a earlier:

First of all, it’s airline spin to call this an overbooking. The statutory provision granting them the ability to deny boarding is about “OVERSALES”, specifically defines as booking more reserved confirmed seats than there are available. This is not what happened. They did not overbook the flight; they had a fully booked flight, and not only did everyone already have a reserved confirmed seat, they were all sitting in them. The law allowing them to denying boarding in the event of an oversale does not apply.

Even if it did apply, the law is unambiguously clear that airlines have to give preference to everyone with reserved confirmed seats when choosing to involuntarily deny boarding. They have to always choose the solution that will affect the least amount of reserved confirmed seats. This rule is straightforward, and United makes very clear in their own contract of carriage that employees of their own or of other carriers may be denied boarding without compensation because they do not have reserved confirmed seats. On its face, it’s clear that what they did was illegal– they gave preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, in violation of 14 CFR 250.2a.

This article also brings into question some of the factors involved in the personnel employed in the Chicago Airport.

jtk

[Bruce Wrenn]

I can't believe anyone is sticking up for the airline. The only business where the paying customer is treated like a criminal from the get go and your rights seen to go away when you buy the ticket.

Passenger wasn't remove from plane by a United employee, but by CITY OF CHICAGO employees. Read the fine print on your ticket contract. Airlines can bump, or deny boarding to anyone, at anytime. As for denying boarding, it's usually the captain's call. You need to walk a mile in air crews shoes before criticizing them. You won't believe the horror stories of unruley passengers. Again, United should have offered them passage to Louisville via ground transportation and $$ for their troubles. They would have gotten home about five hours later than expected. Because crew had to have TEN HOURS OF REST (it's the law) before next day, they couldn't be bused to Louisville. Chicago (O'Hare) doesn't have private planes, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out. On a lighter note, once on a flight the captain gave baggage handler heck. Then told first officer that "She had showed that guy who was in charge!" After departure, crew scheduling contacted plane and informed captain that some how her bags didn't get put on the plane. Hope she had some clean undies in her brief case.

[Keith Westfall]

You won't believe the horror stories of unruley passengers.

I'm sure we don't know the 'whole story', but are any thinking this was an unruly passenger? Willing to bet that he was just sitting there minding his own business, until someone (with maybe no reason) came and said he had to get off. Did they make an announcement about crews having to get to the next stop?

Somehow, I'm not sure that if it was most of us, our response would be, "Look, I didn't take the 'but-out, and because I have to get there as well, I'm not 'volunteering' to get off."

"Oh really?" "Then we're going to drag you off, possibly hurting you, and in the end, we'll show you what we can do!"

United started it, and United will pay for it.

Why? Because I would bet that nowhere does it say: "We will offer a maximum of $800 and then passenger beware..."

[Mike Henderson]

Passenger wasn't remove from plane by a United employee, but by CITY OF CHICAGO employees. Read the fine print on your ticket contract. Airlines can bump, or deny boarding to anyone, at anytime. As for denying boarding, it's usually the captain's call. You need to walk a mile in air crews shoes before criticizing them. You won't believe the horror stories of unruly passengers. Again, United should have offered them passage to Louisville via ground transportation and $$ for their troubles. They would have gotten home about five hours later than expected. Because crew had to have TEN HOURS OF REST (it's the law) before next day, they couldn't be bused to Louisville. Chicago (O'Hare) doesn't have private planes, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out. On a lighter note, once on a flight the captain gave baggage handler heck. Then told first officer that "She had showed that guy who was in charge!" After departure, crew scheduling contacted plane and informed captain that some how her bags didn't get put on the plane. Hope she had some clean undies in her brief case.

The problem is that Dr Dao was not unruly. He was simply sitting in his seat. And it doesn't matter who actually pulled him from his seat, United called them.

The proper way to deal with a situation like that - if you're not going to do it the correct way and buy volunteers - is to tell Dr Dao, "We're not going to drag you from the flight but when we get to our destination you're going to be arrested and charged with interference with a flight crew."

Then tell the passengers that because of Dr. Dao's position they're going to have to deplane someone else. That way, there would not be an embarrassing video. At the destination, Dr. Dao can either disembark with everyone else, and he will be arrested when he gets to the terminal, or if he refuses to leave his seat, everyone else will get off and there won't be a video of them dragging him off the plane.

Of course, the absolute best way to handle the situation is to not have the situation arise - Offer money instead of vouchers (that most people don't want) and offer enough that you get volunteers.

And to Bill Gugel's point: They don't treat us as criminals - they treat us as cattle.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

Because crew had to have TEN HOURS OF REST (it's the law) before next day, they couldn't be bused to Louisville. Chicago (O'Hare) doesn't have private planes, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out.

I'm sorry Bruce, but that's not my problem. It's theirs. I'm a paying customer. You don't shaft me to solve your problem. (Even if your terms of service let you.)

[Mel Fulks]

It's not easy to move someone who does not cooperate, especially with the seat space smaller. Wasn't easy to move 1960s protesters who were using "passive resistance". And it took a long time. I don't think we will see any more removals like the one being discussed. Before 911 there were some really crazy things happening on planes frequently. One involved a drunk using a food cart as a urinal ...and a toilet. But what was getting the most attention from passengers? Lost luggage. It was a really big deal every day in the news. Congress was gonna hold hearings about it. I remember saying that when some planes "fell out of the sky " the attention would turn to violence and outrageous behavior.

[Bert Kemp]

Bruce read what you just wrote, deny boarding , this guy was already boarded and seated.

Passenger wasn't remove from plane by a United employee, but by CITY OF CHICAGO employees. Read the fine print on your ticket contract. Airlines can bump, or deny boarding to anyone, at anytime. As for denying boarding, it's usually the captain's call. You need to walk a mile in air crews shoes before criticizing them. You won't believe the horror stories of unruley passengers. Again, United should have offered them passage to Louisville via ground transportation and $$ for their troubles. They would have gotten home about five hours later than expected. Because crew had to have TEN HOURS OF REST (it's the law) before next day, they couldn't be bused to Louisville. Chicago (O'Hare) doesn't have private planes, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out. On a lighter note, once on a flight the captain gave baggage handler heck. Then told first officer that "She had showed that guy who was in charge!" After departure, crew scheduling contacted plane and informed captain that some how her bags didn't get put on the plane. Hope she had some clean undies in her brief case.

[John Helles]

When you buy a plane ticket your paying a bunch of money for a specific service. In the normal world, that would be a contract which, if the service provider reneged on, they would be liable for damages. But in the airline world, as a result of lobbying, etc, the rules give the airlines an out - a cheap out at that - something totally unfair to the consumer. Its a rigged game. Shame on the rule makers and the people who are supposed to be protecting consumers.

Hopefully the whole mess will lead to a change in the rules to make it more fair to the consumer. As so many people have stated above, it seems a no-brainer that the airline should just up the ante until someone volunteers to skip the flight. I doubt it would take that much ..... and if it did then they have the option of decreasing the amount of overbooking they do so the situation doesn't happen so often.

So Kudos to the doctor and the people with their videos ...... sometimes the system is rigged and the only way to change is to ignore the rules and stand up for what is fair.

[Alex Snyder]

Its a rigged game.

Only further compounded by all the mergers and acquisitions making for less competition. Kudos to videos and social media for giving us cattle a voice against the larger corporations who forget they actually have customers.

Now we just need another Teddy Roosevelt.

[Jerome Stanek]

, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out. On a lighter note, once on a flight the captain gave baggage handler heck. Then told first officer that "She had showed that guy who was in charge!" After departure, crew scheduling contacted plane and informed captain that some how her bags didn't get put on the plane. Hope she had some clean undies in her brief case.

The ride across town was less time then the delay to clean the plane

[Chuck Ellis]

Passenger wasn't remove from plane by a United employee, but by CITY OF CHICAGO employees. Read the fine print on your ticket contract. Airlines can bump, or deny boarding to anyone, at anytime. As for denying boarding, it's usually the captain's call. You need to walk a mile in air crews shoes before criticizing them. You won't believe the horror stories of unruley passengers. Again, United should have offered them passage to Louisville via ground transportation and $$ for their troubles. They would have gotten home about five hours later than expected. Because crew had to have TEN HOURS OF REST (it's the law) before next day, they couldn't be bused to Louisville. Chicago (O'Hare) doesn't have private planes, if memory serves me correct, so anybody would have to be bused across town. By then, the clock for crew would have run out. On a lighter note, once on a flight the captain gave baggage handler heck. Then told first officer that "She had showed that guy who was in charge!" After departure, crew scheduling contacted plane and informed captain that some how her bags didn't get put on the plane. Hope she had some clean undies in her brief case.

New member here... It's been over 30 years since I worked for an airlines that is now defunct, I worked as ramp person loading planes and later in cargo as agent and supervisor.... but rules for the crews when I left were that they had to live within 4 hours driving time from their domicile.... this came about after a plane crash and a flight crew that was living in the Caribbean was killed enroute to their domicile in San Francisco.

It seems to me and in my opinions only, that in today's market with the level of computer usage and levels of programming that all business are capable of, the airlines know how many seats are available on a given aircraft, that should become a base number and when that number is reached, all seats sold after that should be designated as standby... and if they regularly transfer crew from one station to another, maybe hold a number of seats in reserve as possible "dead head" seats for the crew... then if and when the flight is boarded and no crew has reported for transport, then those seats can be filled with the standby tickets... also back in the day when I did work for an airline, all planes had a number of jump seats for the onboard crew... if those seats still exist and all were not in use.... at any rate, the situation could have been avoided by a little judicial prudence in handling... as has been said, a better compensation package would have saved a lot of grief for both the passenger and the carrier.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Chuck and welcome to the Creek.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

When you buy a plane ticket your paying a bunch of money for a specific service. In the normal world, that would be a contract which, if the service provider reneged on, they would be liable for damages. But in the airline world, as a result of lobbying, etc, the rules give the airlines an out - a cheap out at that - something totally unfair to the consumer. Its a rigged game. Shame on the rule makers and the people who are supposed to be protecting consumers.

Hopefully the whole mess will lead to a change in the rules to make it more fair to the consumer. As so many people have stated above, it seems a no-brainer that the airline should just up the ante until someone volunteers to skip the flight. I doubt it would take that much ..... and if it did then they have the option of decreasing the amount of overbooking they do so the situation doesn't happen so often.

So Kudos to the doctor and the people with their videos ...... sometimes the system is rigged and the only way to change is to ignore the rules and stand up for what is fair.

I know the situation is very different, but as I learned more about this situation, I began to think about Rosa Parks and her refusal to give up her seat - and of the changes that happened after that.

Mike