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Thread: Why buy European machines?

  1. #31
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    Just to be clear - Joe and others.. I completely agree that there are various levels of build and quality. But, it is not always necessary to have the utmost best to do the job needing to be done.

    I'd love to have the best of everything - but having spent my allotted budget for my new shop, some things (like the $45K CNC shaper) were just out of the question. However, we manage to make some really nice doors, trim etc on our Cantek $7500 shaper.

    If I were able to trade it in for your Martin you rebuilt, I'd do it But I can't say I "need" any more shaper for the work we do.

    We've had a good mix over the years of some pretty decent US, European, and import stuff. I although I am not a machinery junky in terms of buying/hoarding I do attend the big US shows, and love to look at and investigate all sorts of machinery for our industry. If Money werent an object I'd spend a lot more of it, on Euro stuff. But, don't let not being able to afford the best stop you from doing some pretty decent work.
    Andrew J. Coholic

  2. #32
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    To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...
    I disagree and agree at the same time. If you've got no skills, the best tools aren't going to help, but at a certain point all the skill in the world isn't going to overcome the obstacle of crap tools. That goes for fishing gear to woodworking equipment. Bringing a knife to a gun fight kind of deal.

    I was woefully ignorant in my expectations of equipment when I went on my own and now that I know more I'm forced to make decisions just like Andrew has. I spent $30k on panel saw. It's a great panel saw, but had I had the money, I probably would've almost doubled that expenditure. You do the best with what you can. The rub in that is that had I spent the extra money, I'm certain it would've paid for itself by now.

    I'm cnc shopping, you can spend whatever you want there. It's all worth exactly what you pay. I'm going to end up with a midline cnc and are some point wishing I would've been more patient and gotten more machine.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    I disagree and agree at the same time. If you've got no skills, the best tools aren't going to help, but at a certain point all the skill in the world isn't going to overcome the obstacle of crap tools. That goes for fishing gear to woodworking equipment. Bringing a knife to a gun fight kind of deal.

    I was woefully ignorant in my expectations of equipment when I went on my own and now that I know more I'm forced to make decisions just like Andrew has. I spent $30k on panel saw. It's a great panel saw, but had I had the money, I probably would've almost doubled that expenditure. You do the best with what you can. The rub in that is that had I spent the extra money, I'm certain it would've paid for itself by now.

    I'm cnc shopping, you can spend whatever you want there. It's all worth exactly what you pay. I'm going to end up with a midline cnc and are some point wishing I would've been more patient and gotten more machine.
    Nice tools save you time. A lot can be done with hand tools and cheap basic power tools, no?

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Marty View Post
    Nice tools save you time. A lot can be done with hand tools and cheap basic power tools, no?
    I'd be unemployed.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack duren View Post
    To be a hobby woodworker and putting more into tooling than needed is the same as me being hobby bass fisherman with a $40,000 bass boat. A lot of guys have em but they tend to look the part but can't fish any better than the guy on the bank...
    Mmm, last time I checked a hobby was something you pursue for your own enjoyment. Fitness for purpose doesn't really enter into that arrangement as long as you're enjoying it, surely?

  7. #37
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    There's a difference between good enough tooling and excessive.

  8. #38
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    Nothing wrong with enjoying a hobby. But....Buying high end equipment won't make your skill level...

  9. #39
    I see this discussion in every venue.

    He's a hobby photographer, why does he have a $10,000 camera?

    He's a hobby musician, why does he have a $75,000 cello?

    He's a hobby _______, why does he have a ________?

    The answer is because he can. It doesn't make it right it doesn't make it wrong. If someone has been lucky enough or wise enough to have the money to buy something nice in an area they enjoy then my hat goes off to them.

    The problem starts when we start judging them for it. There's a reason why there is a commandment "Thou shalt not covet".

    I have a Bosch 4100 table saw, I'm saving for a Hammer K3 or Felder K500. This is just a hobby for me and there are literally dozens, maybe hundreds of table saws new and used between what I have now and what I want that would suit me to a T. The Hammer/Felder will be more expensive than a suitable alternative for what I truly need it for but I will take pleasure in owning it.

    Maybe one day I'll reach a level of skill to justify my purchase, maybe I won't.

  10. #40
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    Seems like we have moved from judging machinery to judging the humans who buy it. Dave

  11. #41
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    Businesses live or die by efficiency. Better, faster, more accurate machines pay big dividends to downstream processing, saving time and rework.
    Every level of machinery, is just another evolutionary level of using a better "rock". Sure there comes a level that quality of build that cancels out a higher level of machining precision.
    For businesses, it is about time.
    If I did this at a hobby level, I would own the best I could afford.
    As a business, I do pretty much the same, though I like Joe, really like my tools- but I do have to make a cost/benefit analysis as part of the equation.
    I did some really nice work with junk tools, years ago, but I worked a LOT harder, and had a LOT more frustration.
    Life is really short, and if I am gonna be in this for a career, I would rather "drive a Mercedes across the country than a Yugo"
    They will both get you there, but........

  12. #42
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    I don't recall why the need was started but some years ago I decided I needed a slider and if you want a slider in Oz it is European or nothing. Asian machines are around but I have only seen one in the flesh and never seen an advert for one. I bought my slider and can truly say the difference in work practises and results is worth twice the money I paid and I smile every time I use it. Perhaps the biggest single advantage I find is I use the rip fence maybe once every few months as all the ripping I do is done on the table. Way more accurate and consistent and a thousand more times safer and faster. My A3-31 combination machine is beyond words in accuracy. It has taken a while but I now trust the thing enough to know I don't have to measure what comes out of the thicknesser because it is simply the correct dimension and repeatable months down the track. I like good things and it has taken a long while to get there and I do not apologise for owning and enjoying them. All my machines prior to what I have now were bought used and they did a good job, my present machines were bought new and I enjoy using them and I think that is the difference for me.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    Seems like we have moved from judging machinery to judging the humans who buy it. Dave
    Dave, I have always been of the mindset (another thing my father taught me) it does not matter what anyone else has or uses, buys etc. It only matters what you buy & use.

    Again, my point is not to question what others suggest you need - but to temper that advice. Machinery is available at many price and quality levels. Someone might be happy with the lower end of things, someone else might not be happy unless they have what is considered the "best". Then there are guys like me, who fall somewhere in the middle.

    As I said - I've been in many shops that run similar machinery to what I have, some much better, and many much worse. Everyone's needs and expectations are different. There is a huge difference between wanting the "best" and needing the "best".

    If you are a hobbiest, or professional - and money isn't an object - the more power to you. But for the majority of working shops, cost VS wants VS needs always comes into play.
    Andrew J. Coholic

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter gagliardi View Post
    Businesses live or die by efficiency. Better, faster, more accurate machines pay big dividends to downstream processing, saving time and rework.
    Every level of machinery, is just another evolutionary level of using a better "rock". Sure there comes a level that quality of build that cancels out a higher level of machining precision.
    For businesses, it is about time.
    If I did this at a hobby level, I would own the best I could afford.
    As a business, I do pretty much the same, though I like Joe, really like my tools- but I do have to make a cost/benefit analysis as part of the equation.
    I did some really nice work with junk tools, years ago, but I worked a LOT harder, and had a LOT more frustration.
    Life is really short, and if I am gonna be in this for a career, I would rather "drive a Mercedes across the country than a Yugo"
    They will both get you there, but........


    But for many guys Peter, driving a GMC or Ford gets you there pretty nicely as well. My parents emigrated from Yugoslavia.. and I wouldnt want a Yugo either, lol. But we did pretty well for years with our mid line Italian equipment.

    Sometimes I feel that the stuff most talked about is the really low end stuff and the really high end stuff. With the majority of gear - being somewhere within the 80% that falls in between those limits, not mentioned much. I find that odd. You don't usually go from the extreme bottom to the extreme top in many other things.
    Andrew J. Coholic

  15. #45
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    Back to the OP question.. People like me buy Euro machinery because they can. It is immensely superior to basic Asian machinery. I am getting rid of a Griggio 20" Planer for a Martin 24" planer next month (its enroute ) .. because its a far superior machine and its what I wanted.

    I have a very good buddy who collects Italian Motorcycles .. Ducati, Guzzi .. stuff like that .. another has a boat that burns $100 an hour in fuel ..

    European machinery ranges from Hammer to Martin.. The Martin Planer has a 10hp motor. It has a self lubricating planer bed.. and a Martin Xplane Helical head.. It has a numerical key pad to operate the cutting height.. I need this about as much as I need a $30,000 Harley Davidson...

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