Why buy European machines?

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin, no idea what the band saw feeders are for speed. we have a feeder on our band saw that we run slow for resawing. I will look and see what the high speed is. we run our little SLR at about 50fpm and that is fine. We spend most of the time looking and picking the boards.

[Brian W Evans]

Extreme Woodworker is starting what will probably be a great new series of videos on Youtube that turn all this good discussion into real demonstrations. His first video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_A24SfM5KI shows how to rip a live edge board on his Martin slider. His next video is the one I really want to see about the different ways to do rip cuts on the slider.

I second this recommendation. I also found this video - an ad for an Altendorf saw - that does a good job showing the process for cutting down sheet goods on a slider. The second half of the video is about adjusting the scoring saw and is more or less specific to the Altendorf, but the first part is relevant to this discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8JR_fD-dMI

I've cut down sheet goods with a circular saw and guide, a track saw, an American-style cabinet saw, and my new euro slider. Watch the video and you'll see why there is no comparison to a euro slider for this task (except maybe a panel saw, which I have never used).

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, no idea what the band saw feeders are for speed. we have a feeder on our band saw that we run slow for resawing. I will look and see what the high speed is. we run our little SLR at about 50fpm and that is fine. We spend most of the time looking and picking the boards.

I'm just thinking it'd be painful doing sticking for cabinet doors, face frame material, or moulder blanks where the defecting is a secondary operation and all you're trying to do is get lumber through machine as quick as possible. Still faster than pushing stuff through by hand, but the guy tailing the slr should be scrambling to keep up.

[andy bessette]

When I found my like new 20" Agazzani bandsaw on c/l, for ~$1750 including HTC rolling base, I knew it was a quality machine for the money. That it was euro didn't mean anything.

[Joe Jensen]

Its a funny thing, a lot of the people that criticize me for what I pay for tools have a couple of snowmobiles in the garage, a boat in the back yard, and a motorcycle or two in the mix. All of which would buy a nice tool that lasts a lifetime. Its all about perspective.

20 years ago I bought a Artic Cat Sno-Pro 440 and a SCM planer with a Tersa head the same year, they cost about the same money. The snowmobile is long gone, two years and it was worn out, but that planer is still in my shop, and I still get kick out of its accuracy every time I use it. It will last me until I do not want to work with wood any more. At that time it will still be worth at least half of what I paid for it, and it will have contributed to hundreds of thousands of income.

AMEN ​I could not have said it better

[Rick Fisher]

I second this recommendation. I also found this video - an ad for an Altendorf saw - that does a good job showing the process for cutting down sheet goods on a slider. The second half of the video is about adjusting the scoring saw and is more or less specific to the Altendorf, but the first part is relevant to this discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8JR_fD-dMI

.

Thanks for posting that Altendorf video Brian. Watching that video, I would say that's superior saw to my T-60C .. The only thing I think Martin did better was the hand wheel to move the fence, I absolutely love that feature.. the pull out extension on the cross cut is brilliant. The fit and finish on the clip on panel support is better than my Martin .. Mine is made by Martin and steel .. The way you adjust the scoring on the Altendorf seemed pretty standard.. I assume the Altendorf 45 is more in line with the Martin 70 or 75 like Joe Calhoon has ?

I use mine for 95% solid wood and would never go back to a miter saw or cabinet saw..

[Joe Calhoon]

I'm just thinking it'd be painful doing sticking for cabinet doors, face frame material, or moulder blanks where the defecting is a secondary operation and all you're trying to do is get lumber through machine as quick as possible. Still faster than pushing stuff through by hand, but the guy tailing the slr should be scrambling to keep up.

It depends on what we are doing. Architectural house trim we will just roll a unit of wood to the saw and start ripping with a little time spent sorting widths for the best
yield. We call this playing baseball. Most of our product is pretty fussy for grain match and door rough stock for straight. We spend the time it takes and get paid for it. A band saw would serve us well for our low volume but the little SLR is Unisaw size and a easy fit for our shop.
The local cabinet door mfg who makes a good product for his price gang rips his lumber and profiles through a 5 head moulder. Then does some sorting at cut to length of the stiles and rails. Our 4 side S4S machine made the biggest difference for us on material processing.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for posting that Altendorf video Brian. Watching that video, I would say that's superior saw to my T-60C .. The only thing I think Martin did better was the hand wheel to move the fence, I absolutely love that feature.. the pull out extension on the cross cut is brilliant. The fit and finish on the clip on panel support is better than my Martin .. Mine is made by Martin and steel .. The way you adjust the scoring on the Altendorf seemed pretty standard.. I assume the Altendorf 45 is more in line with the Martin 70 or 75 like Joe Calhoon has ?

I use mine for 95% solid wood and would never go back to a miter saw or cabinet saw..

Rick, I have a 18 year old T72A with the fence handwheel. Peter G has a T75 with all the options. We are also about 95%solid wood. It took us many years to realize the potential for solid wood on these.

[Rick Fisher]

They did the hand wheel 18 years ago ? Patent must be extinct .. why would others not offer it .. its awesome .

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Back to the OP question.. People like me buy Euro machinery because they can. It is immensely superior to basic Asian machinery. I am getting rid of a Griggio 20" Planer for a Martin 24" planer next month (its enroute ) .. because its a far superior machine and its what I wanted.

I have a very good buddy who collects Italian Motorcycles .. Ducati, Guzzi .. stuff like that .. another has a boat that burns $100 an hour in fuel ..

European machinery ranges from Hammer to Martin.. The Martin Planer has a 10hp motor. It has a self lubricating planer bed.. and a Martin Xplane Helical head.. It has a numerical key pad to operate the cutting height.. I need this about as much as I need a $30,000 Harley Davidson...

Rick,
Here is an honest question from a guy who doesnt know.. and please note I am not in for an arguement, this is a completely above board question without any hidden meaning/adgenda..

When I set up our new facility a few years ago, I looked at a lot of machinery. Seeing as I sold me old shop turn key and was taking very little with me, I was looking for pretty much everything again.

Planers.. I looked at a few European models in the 20" to 24", at that time (2009) priced in the higher teens to lower twenties for new, mid teens for nearly new/slightly used. I looked at the Cantek and went with the 20" planer, with helical carbide head, 7.5 Hp motor, infinitely adjustable feed, digital table setting. It was about $11K, or about 1/3 less than what I was looking at in the same class. Actually a Griggio and maybe SCM?

To my question: so, my planer seems to work really well. The hight setting is repeatable and accurate to within a thousandth or less, all across the 20" bed. The head cust well, leaves a great (IMO) finish which is easily cleaned up with a 5 thous pass through the wide belt with 120 grit. The planer is quiet (compared to the straight knife and TErsa head planers Ive used in the past, large Delta, GEneral, Sicar brands) and I absolutely can find no fault with it after 6 years of daily use and planing at least 60 to 80 (or more) thousand board feet of hardwoods. I get everything in rough, so we joint and plane all the lumber we get. Plus I do contract planing as well for other guys. Its held up really well.

You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.

[Erik Loza]

..You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

No dog in this fight and I won't presume to answer for another member but I've been in as many cabinet shops as anyone and have yet to see a Martin machine. If it's stuff at this level, typically it's some ancient SCMi or Altendorf iron. Most Martin equipment I read or hear of is either owned by a rich hobbyist or by a shop that in some capacity, is sponsored by or otherwise affiliated with them beyond the usual dealer-client capacity. Not that there's anything wrong with any of that: I wish I could afford a Martin (we have an Asian moulder and rip saw from Stiles, but also a big Buetfering. The finishing and drying machines are American-made).

The recession and subsequent liquidation of tons of cabinet shops across the country really flooded the market with lots of industrial iron at rock-bottom prices and IMHO, the advent of in CNC technology and how affordable they have become has really put a dent in the high-end Classical market. For example, I think SCM might have sold maybe 1 or 2 of their top-tier computerized sliders a year when I was last with them. Compare that to the Si400 Nova, which hundreds were sold of every year in the US. Why would a cabinet shop spend $50K on a slider when you can have a real CNC for not much more? To put it into context, Stiles (SCM's biggest competitor) has only one or two truly European-made classical machines in their entire lineup. All the rest are Chinese and Stiles is the biggest dealership in this industry, which out to say something about the direction of the market. Just my 2-cents as always.

Erik

[John Sincerbeaux]

Who buys Martin equipment? MasterBrand.... The largest cabinet maker in North America.

[Brian W Evans]

Rick,
I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.

I don't have a direct answer to this part of your question but, since I posted the other video, I'll post these of an Altendorf as well. I have nothing to do with Altendorf and don't see why I would ever need one vs my Minimax. Everything I've heard anyone say on this forum about a euro slider indicates that they all accomplish the same job, and do it well. That said, some of the features, like the laser, or the automatic length compensation for miter cuts seem like they would be nice to have. I can't see the need for some of the motorized stops, though, and I am of the opinion that more moving or motorized parts = more things to break.

Here are the videos:

https://youtu.be/AducjhD_RJU

https://youtu.be/kl0NEGqRv7A


Here's a link to a site that allows you to configure an Altendorf F45. I found this site while trying to find out what a saw like this costs. I couldn't find out for sure but it seems to be at least in the $30,000 neighborhood, with very high resale values.

[jack forsberg]

When the subject of German machinery superiority comes up is always good to inject some Benny Hill

[Mel Fulks]

Well said,Jack. Funny stuff ,but those shoes shulda' showed em !