Why buy European machines?

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't have a direct answer to this part of your question but, since I posted the other video, I'll post these of an Altendorf as well. I have nothing to do with Altendorf and don't see why I would ever need one vs my Minimax. Everything I've heard anyone say on this forum about a euro slider indicates that they all accomplish the same job, and do it well. That said, some of the features, like the laser, or the automatic length compensation for miter cuts seem like they would be nice to have. I can't see the need for some of the motorized stops, though, and I am of the opinion that more moving or motorized parts = more things to break.

I pretty much agree on the parts break by percentage thing. If they would provide a manual override in case of a failure I would be more inclined, but they do not. If you watch the used market we are starting to see some of these electronic machines come up in auction with failed and unserviceable electronics, and going cheap for what would otherwise be a mechanically competent machine.

I have also read in the pro forums saga's of trying to get electronics packages sorted, and the cost of a visit by a tech. No thanks, give me manual readouts and that is all I need. I would be afraid of having a beautiful machine setting there not working because of some electrical component failure that I know nothing about.

[Joe Calhoon]

No dog in this fight and I won't presume to answer for another member but I've been in as many cabinet shops as anyone and have yet to see a Martin machine. If it's stuff at this level, typically it's some ancient SCMi or Altendorf iron. Most Martin equipment I read or hear of is either owned by a rich hobbyist or by a shop that in some capacity, is sponsored by or otherwise affiliated with them beyond the usual dealer-client capacity.
Erik

Eric, If you care to visit me I will take you to 3 local shops besides mine that have Martin. I live in a rural very small populated area of Colorado. Martin is a small company with about 100 employees producing about 1000 to 1500 machines per year of which around 80 to 100 per year go to North America.There are a couple other producers of similar quality machines in Europe. I am sure it is a tough market for these producers with all the cost engineering done by most mainstream mfgs.

You seem to make a big deal about this without any knowledge or facts. Myself I have no problem with someone buying whatever machine they choose.

[Joe Calhoon]

Rick,
Here is an honest question from a guy who doesnt know.. and please note I am not in for an arguement, this is a completely above board question without any hidden meaning/adgenda..

When I set up our new facility a few years ago, I looked at a lot of machinery. Seeing as I sold me old shop turn key and was taking very little with me, I was looking for pretty much everything again.

Planers.. I looked at a few European models in the 20" to 24", at that time (2009) priced in the higher teens to lower twenties for new, mid teens for nearly new/slightly used. I looked at the Cantek and went with the 20" planer, with helical carbide head, 7.5 Hp motor, infinitely adjustable feed, digital table setting. It was about $11K, or about 1/3 less than what I was looking at in the same class. Actually a Griggio and maybe SCM?

To my question: so, my planer seems to work really well. The hight setting is repeatable and accurate to within a thousandth or less, all across the 20" bed. The head cust well, leaves a great (IMO) finish which is easily cleaned up with a 5 thous pass through the wide belt with 120 grit. The planer is quiet (compared to the straight knife and TErsa head planers Ive used in the past, large Delta, GEneral, Sicar brands) and I absolutely can find no fault with it after 6 years of daily use and planing at least 60 to 80 (or more) thousand board feet of hardwoods. I get everything in rough, so we joint and plane all the lumber we get. Plus I do contract planing as well for other guys. Its held up really well.

You say your new Martin is "far superior" to your Griggio. What makes that so? I'd like to know details why VS just saying it is. I see a lot of this stuff at the shows like IWF and AWFS, but obviously never been in a shop that uses the higher end gear like Martin.

I know my Griggio slider is a plain jane model (although I did add the Tiger fence) but it cuts accurately and works well. Similarly, I'd like to know how a high end Altendorf or Martin saw would change the way we operate? Looking at a saw on the show floor is one thing, but it doesnt tell me what Im missing.

Andrew,
In November I helped set up a woodworking shop in Bhutan with all Griggio machines. I would say in their price range they produce a solid machine. Better than a lot of the other Euro producers in the same price range. This is a developing third world country and more complex machines would have been a mistake.
I was there for a month and spent much time with the machines. I can tell you first hand there are many differences (and should be for the price) Engineering, function, electronics, and fit and finish just to name a few.

The better machines are not a necessity to be successful in business but sure hard to go back to lesser quality once you have experienced them.
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[Rick Fisher]

When I bought the new planer I decided to get either the Felder Format 63 .. The SCM Invincible or the Martin ..

In my head I was really intrigued with the SCM Invincible but I believed I would end up with the Felder. (I assumed the Martin would be really expensive)

Not long before I had bought a new SCM S600 Bandsaw (MM-24) .. it showed up missing parts .. I was really disappointed with customer service from SCM .. I tried to get the part but in the end I went to a machine shop and had the part made rather than get mad..

About 2 running hours later the magnetic starter failed. Again it was hard to get help.. I filled out a bunch of SCM warranty info, and about 10 days later hired an Industrial electrician to install a new mag starter, I never did hear back from SCM .. (The electrician tested the original starter and said the contacts ? appeared stuck, open or closed.. I dunno . something failed )

I did a pile of research and asked way too many questions of the sales people. I came to realize that the Martin was the best thought out, heaviest, quietest and nicest machine. A small example would be changing from Metric to Imperial.. Martin is dead simple. Other manufacturers didn't make it simple at all.
I grew up imperial but live in a metric country.. I work in both .. The other factor was resale value. I don't plan on selling the machine but Martin is like Festool in our area.. sells fast and expensive when used..

Most of all the shopping experience with Martin is outstanding.. I ended up asking "Stephan ? " . from Martin a myriad of questions and he was amazing at getting me answers.. Really outstanding .. The Martin was the most expensive, but it wasn't terrible..

Joe Calhoon was actually a part in the final decision. He said buy Martin, cry once .. lol ..

Andrew.. I have no experience with Cantek machinery and assume they are rock solid. The appear to be extremely well made, industrial machines.. I just like Euro . its not logical or even defensible. I have a buddy who drives a Ducati, apparently a Suzuki is just as fast, more reliable and way cheaper.. He owns 3 Italian bikes anyway..

[Chris Parks]

I have a really technical question for the experts, what is a format saw and why is it different to a slider? I did the Google thing with no results.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a really technical question for the experts, what is a format saw and why is it different to a slider? I did the Google thing with no results.

Format is the name of the highest end Felder equipment. Google Felder Format 4

[Chris Parks]

Thanks Rick, I knew Felder had a "format" saw but I have seen it used in a generic way and wondered if it a different type of slider or not and if so what the difference was.

[peter gagliardi]

Rick, I have heard that , and experienced it personally about SCM from innumerable people- short on answers, and issues with parts. Enough so, that I wouldn't gamble with my money on them.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Rick
Alright that all makes more sense. Customer service, parts availability etc.
I know that has a lot to add to a companies rep and also worth much dollar wise.

Machinery isn't a bargain if it if it breaks down and/or is hard to get parts and service.

I know Griggio here is like Sicar - you're on your own and hope you can speak Italian lol.

This is all very interesting stuff to me. Without any friends close by in the business, and with the other shops not being invested mych in equipment, I'm very much on my own to figure out what's a good/better/great investment for our company when it comes to buying machinery.

[Andrew J. Coholic]

Andrew,
In November I helped set up a woodworking shop in Bhutan with all Griggio machines. I would say in their price range they produce a solid machine. Better than a lot of the other Euro producers in the same price range. This is a developing third world country and more complex machines would have been a mistake.
I was there for a month and spent much time with the machines. I can tell you first hand there are many differences (and should be for the price) Engineering, function, electronics, and fit and finish just to name a few.

The better machines are not a necessity to be successful in business but sure hard to go back to lesser quality once you have experienced them.
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Very interesting post Joe. Thanks.

[David Kumm]

I have a few used SCM and have had great luck with Carissa Stanford and Pete ( don't know last name ) at parts pronto. Martin is still way above in build but the availability of parts from SCM is pretty good. I've found that at every parts or tech support place I've used that some people are better than others and it pays to ask for them by name.

Stiles imports Cantek as their Artisan line and I doubt they mess with machines that aren't rock solid. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, there are a lot of advantages for hobbyists, such as capacity, capability, safety features, space savings and quality.

There also are non measurable such as how they look, and feel when being used.

regards, Rod.

[Rick Fisher]

I should say .. My MM-24 Bandsaw is great .. Its a really well built machine. It suffered some bad luck in its early days but I've got a few miles of cutting on it now and I would recommend it to anyone ..

I have a 1989 ? SCM 600 and a 2016 S600 from the same factory.. 27 years later.. The new saw is superior to the old one in build quality and of course features..

[Rick Fisher]

Joe. Those Griggio pics are awesome.

That jointer stands out as a pretty nice looking machine.. how did it compare to your Martin ?

Jointers are pretty simple ?

[Joe Calhoon]

Rick, the devil is in the small details. I will say it again that in their price range Griggio is a solid contender and Martin should be expected to be better in their price range.
the biggest difference is the fence. Up thread I posted pictures of Martins fence that runs on bearings with a lever to lock in any position easily and tilt with one hand locking. As you can see from the pictures Griggio is a simple tube with kip lever. They had some nylon pads under the fence to make it glide easier but you had to be careful if dust is on the table it would throw the fence out a little. The tilt method was not bad and overall was a better fence than the SCM jointer I used for years. It did have a small twist but did not seem to effect accuracy. The outfeed table adjustment was painful to use compared to Martins. It took a couple hours to adjust compared to 5 minutes on the Martin. The last day I was there the table went out of adjustment and never had a chance to see what the problem was. The cut quality of the Tersa head on both the planer and jointer felt the same as on my Martins. All the Griggio machines have more vibration than Martins. That is to be expected with the sheet steel bases. Griggio cast tables were heavy and flat. I remember the cast table on my Felder shaper was very thin and had to be adjusted with bolts to flatten.
the mortising table seemed like an afterthought and parts of the back fence cover had to be removed to use it. All the Griggio machines used lesser quality electronics and readouts but to be expected in that price range.

Griggio has a line of machines made in the East but their top line is still made in Italy. These were ordered with the least amount of electronics possible but still most of the movements are motorized. I believe it cost mfgs less to to do it this way than hand wheels.

It was a good choice for the shop in Bhutan. More complex machines would be a disaster. They go at their work hard to get product out the door at a price that is affordable. On the way there I installed a Martin CNC shaper in China. The woodworking world is a whole different ballgame in those countries.