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Thread: What Mortise Gauge Do you Prefer

  1. #16
    I am not in the market for any gauges. I think we shouldn't shoot the messenger here as any inventors who don't have themselves covered are their fault, not the buyers of any copies of their products. Nor, those who choose to share the availability of the copies.

    Granted, even if a product design is protected by a patent, it might be difficult to enforce the protection (case in point: SawStop vs Bosch), but that is a different situation in which the "right" vs "wrong" is clear.

    Simon

  2. #17
    foto 1 (8).jpg

    This is my favorite. Not only does it have the looks, it's even micro adjustable!

    I did file the points though. From those thick pins towards more slender knife type ones. I now hope I didn't remove too much and they will last me a decent time.

    foto 2 (7).jpg

  3. #18
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    I have a Stanley 77 gauge like yours. I also have a Marples that is similar.

  4. #19
    Yes these things were made by everyone in England. I have no idea who made mine, it only has a users mark (Colens).

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    foto 1 (8).jpg

    This is my favorite. Not only does it have the looks, it's even micro adjustable!

    I did file the points though. From those thick pins towards more slender knife type ones. I now hope I didn't remove too much and they will last me a decent time.

    foto 2 (7).jpg
    Kees,

    It is a beautiful gauge. I have no need for another gauge but if I found one like yours I would buy it in a heart beat.

    ken

  6. #21
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    Ken & Kees' recommendation are very good. The Marples version mentioned is great, I own and use one. I have tried the wheel style that one of the guys has in our workshop and for me I found it inferior for marking mortises.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    Ken & Kees' recommendation are very good. The Marples version mentioned is great, I own and use one. I have tried the wheel style that one of the guys has in our workshop and for me I found it inferior for marking mortises.
    Thanks Graham,

    Like you I find wheel and knife gauges are not optimum for end grain or with grain work. They will work but a pin gauge does it better, wish I could remember the song that came from . That is one of the reasons I think there is no one perfect gauge and you need to fit the gauge to the job, not the other way around.

    ken

  8. #23
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    I'm guessing that anyone doing this for a while will have wheel, pin, and knife gauges. I do.

    Some of them are home made.

  9. #24
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    I've recently restored an old pin mortice gauge - filed the pins as well, Kees It works well. I can see more time on this. No photo yet.

    I do have three others, one I purchased (Veritas double beam), one I was given as a gift (Kinshiro), and one I built ...



    I am still coming to terms with the wheel gauge. I really like wheel gauges for cross-grain scoring, but they leave a very light mark on end grain. The Veritas is aided in one respect, and that is that the lines may be scored separately, which means more pressure may be exerted to each wheel. Trying to do two wheels together on a single beam is frustrating, especially with our local hardwoods.

    The Kinshiro is my favourite gauge, and knives work exceeding well in all situations. The one downside to the Kinshiro is that the knives are very tricky to adjust for different depths, such as when moving from the tenon of a stretcher to a mortice of a leg. For this reason I designed and built a fixed double knife gauge ...



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 04-19-2017 at 2:38 AM.

  10. #25
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    I need to file the points on my pins to a knife edge too. I am concerned as what you said Ken. Ending up with too fine an edge to hold up. But I will give it a try anyways.
    The pin diameters are .063 on my Marples economy gages. So they will be easy to replace with 1/16" drill shanks if necessary.
    I want to make my own gages using HSS hack saw blades instead of the pins. Having a set for inside and outside edge marking, with one side of the blade perpendicular to the work, and the other side beveled to the waste side of the part being marked.
    Pins filed on the sides and stoned to a nice edge will probably work ok though.

  11. All that may be true for Apple and Google. But I'm talking about a small tool-maker -- a full-time one-man shop that has introduced a wide variety of excellent tools, each one developed with a new look at how things can and should work. Do you think the company that ripped off Glen-Drake's gauge will be developing their own innovative, high-quality tools to help you do better work? Of course not. They're vultures seeking the quick buck by stealing designs, avoiding the expense and risk of R&D and marketing.

    Protecting designs is impractical unless you're Google or Apple. I doubt the cost of defending the patent infringement would be covered by the profits on every Tite-Mark ever sold. It saddens me that we have to keep having this conversation.

    Ethical consumerism, not just looking only for the lowest price, can encourage innovation and the development of new products. Why go to the expense of developing a new tool just to be ripped off? I know this has been discussed ad nauseam. But I know woodworkers who won't market their work for fear someone will go into production on the design they took months or years to perfect.

    I read an inspiring signature line somewhere that I think applies here: "Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
    Ron Hock
    HOCK TOOLS

  12. #27
    Mostly use a wheel gauge, but I also like traditional marking gauges.

    Sooner or later I'm going to get around to making up 3 or 4.

    In some projects its very handy to have several and keep them set and ready.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hock View Post
    All that may be true for Apple and Google. But I'm talking about a small tool-maker -- a full-time one-man shop that has introduced a wide variety of excellent tools, each one developed with a new look at how things can and should work. Do you think the company that ripped off Glen-Drake's gauge will be developing their own innovative, high-quality tools to help you do better work? Of course not. They're vultures seeking the quick buck by stealing designs, avoiding the expense and risk of R&D and marketing.

    Protecting designs is impractical unless you're Google or Apple. I doubt the cost of defending the patent infringement would be covered by the profits on every Tite-Mark ever sold. It saddens me that we have to keep having this conversation.

    Ethical consumerism, not just looking only for the lowest price, can encourage innovation and the development of new products. Why go to the expense of developing a new tool just to be ripped off? I know this has been discussed ad nauseam. But I know woodworkers who won't market their work for fear someone will go into production on the design they took months or years to perfect.

    I read an inspiring signature line somewhere that I think applies here: "Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
    Amen. Couldn't agree more.
    Paul

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Hock View Post
    All that may be true for Apple and Google. But I'm talking about a small tool-maker -- a full-time one-man shop that has introduced a wide variety of excellent tools, each one developed with a new look at how things can and should work. Do you think the company that ripped off Glen-Drake's gauge will be developing their own innovative, high-quality tools to help you do better work? Of course not. They're vultures seeking the quick buck by stealing designs, avoiding the expense and risk of R&D and marketing.

    Protecting designs is impractical unless you're Google or Apple. I doubt the cost of defending the patent infringement would be covered by the profits on every Tite-Mark ever sold. It saddens me that we have to keep having this conversation.

    Ethical consumerism, not just looking only for the lowest price, can encourage innovation and the development of new products. Why go to the expense of developing a new tool just to be ripped off? I know this has been discussed ad nauseam. But I know woodworkers who won't market their work for fear someone will go into production on the design they took months or years to perfect.

    I read an inspiring signature line somewhere that I think applies here: "Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
    The points you make are valid. If someone just wants to support Kevin Drake and pay the extra money, I'm all for it. But the point I'm always trying to make is that people like Taylor Tools are not doing anything wrong. They are doing what our economic system encourages people to do. The advantage for the consumer is that s/he gets a tool for 1/3 the cost of the Tite-Mark (about $30 instead of $90).

    Now, does this put pressure on Kevin Drake? Yes, absolutely! That's what our economic system encourages. Kevin Drake can respond by selling the tool for a lesser price, or making a version that does not have the fit and finish of the existing Tite-Mark and sells for less money, or contracting with a Chinese manufacturer to make a version that can compete with the Taylor tools in quality and price. There's probably other ways he could respond that I can't think of.

    Kevin Drake can also come up with various innovative features for the product that justify the extra costs. You can't hold still and expect to rest on your laurels.

    Kevin Drake had many years where he did not have any direct competition (meaning a marking gauge that could be operated one hand) so he's extracted value from his invention. But since he did nothing to protect his intellectual property, he had to know that one day someone would take that public domain intellectual property and compete against him.

    It's the hard fact of competing in the marketplace.

    So how should a rational buyer respond? If they feel that they will get more benefit in the long run by paying three times more for a marking gauge they should purchase the Tite-Mark. But most rational buyers have a more short term view. As John Maynard Keynes said, "In the long run, we are all dead." Offering such support in the hope of getting something back in the form of future innovative tools is probably going to be disappointing.

    And people who won't market a product that they developed because "someone will steal the design" are illogical. No person is so smart that they can develop something that no one else can think of. They will likely see their innovative product in the market being sold by someone else. If their idea really is unique they have the tools to protect their idea and prevent others from copying (patents). There are patent companies who will purchase the patent and enforce it, and the inventor can get a portion of the awards. But more importantly it will keep others out of the market with an exact copy of their product.

    Trying to appeal to consumers to pay three times the price for a fairly expensive product is not likely to succeed on a large scale. Most people need two marking gauges for dovetails so they'll be facing either a $60 purchase or a $180 purchase. Trying to get them to pay $120 extra for "ethical consumerism" is a tough sell. But if you can do it, go for it!

    Mike

    [The focus of our economic system is to provide value to the consumer, not to protect manufacturers.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 04-19-2017 at 4:33 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  15. #30
    Bottom line, buying things on price alone is a losing strategy. It my be good for the individual at that moment but in the long run bad for the group. Walmart is a perfect example, individuals may save money buying inferior goods but in the long run Walmart ends up hollowing out their town and taking jobs away from the country. Its pretty much lose lose, you get shoddy goods and lose your job to save a nickel.

    I guess for me the real question is: Can I look in the mirror each morning and like what I see.

    ken

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