What Mortise Gauge Do you Prefer

[Malcolm McLeod]

Mike is not approaching this from an "immoral" perspective. Words like "moral" or "ethical" are out of place in this discussion. He is concerned about kids who can't afford to spend hundreds of dollars and need a marking gauge. There is nothing immoral about that, any more than there is something immoral about worrying that a $15 minimum wage might effectively prohibit some low skill workers from making a living, or people who worry that pharmaceutical patents might prevent people who need medicine from getting it. When I was growing up we saw the same debate over whether a Walmart would be allowed to build in town. You see a similar thing going on in discussions about global warming. Some people are more concerned about the bleaching coral. Some people are more concerned about the coal miners. Both sides of those debates are trying to approach it from a moral perspective, just as both sides of this debate are.

It makes no more sense to call Mike "immoral" than it would for me to call folks who oppose him "racists" or "imperialists" (after all, a superficial review of these threads would suggest folks only really get upset about copying when the Chinese are involved somehow; all American copying seems to be chalked up to good old Yankee ingenuity). In this context I think all of those words are just an easy way to avoid the substance of the other arguments.

I don't buy the distinction between the Lee Valley gauge and this one, any more than I buy the distinctions people have tried to make between the Lie Nielsen copies and the Woodriver copies. Interesting that the fellow who will straight up copy any Stanley part you send him never comes up in these discussions. From a certain point of view I would think an "ethical" argument could be made that he is taking food out of the mouths of our beloved tool dealers. Nobody seems to care. Would it be different if his address was Beijing instead of Arizona? Is it wrong to take your car to the local shade tree mechanic for a repair instead of taking it back to the dealer for repair by the people who "own" the design?

I suspect Derek's willingness to see differences in the design of the Lee Valley gauge he likes may subconciously have something to do with his friendship with Rob Lee (who has earned plenty of my tool dollars in recent years). Nothing wrong with that. Ron Hock a small tool maker, (who sold me two marking knives I like very much, thank you) has his own biases in an argument of this type, as does Chris Schwarz, who I think was linked in the last thread. Another member who was prominent in the last thread is a personal friend of one of the tool makers involved. Nothing wrong with any of their perspectives, and all are understandable, just as it is understandable for West Virginians to vote en masse against the democrats in the last couple of elections. But to smear people as immoral or unethical because they deal with "not my friends" is wrong. Nobody appointed anybody Pope of the hand tool world, and the preachiness of these threads is distasteful to me.

It is a big world, with lots of people, and if freedom means anything it means the right to be different, and think through things at your own pace, and come to your own conclusions in your own time. I think it is ridiculous that we have a member asking anxiously if it is "okay" for him to buy a gauge from a well established and respected tool dealer out of fear of what the mob might think of him. I don't agree with everything Mike says, and I don't agree with a lot of what the people who don't agree with him say. But I accept that both arguments are being made by good people in good faith, trying to deal with a difficult issue.

Well said. A VERY non-binary perspective.

How many people acquire ethical blind-spots (aka hypocrisy) about things that seem trivial, or dated, or just invisible to them? Do you support Mr. Drake for his inventiveness, but buy a Toyota? (By many of the arguments held dear herein, you really shouldn't buy a Toyota! They modeled their electronic ABS system from pioneering work marketed by Ford (or Chrysler/Bendix - - depending on who you believe).)

I am a firm believer in a capitalist reward system. If someone innovates, or provides exemplary sales assistance, or faster delivery, or better advice, or excellent after-sale tech support, then I will make every effort to reward them with my business. But I also look at when an item becomes a commodity. Who here will refuse to buy gasoline that's 3% cheaper at the station across the street from their 'favorite' station? Or fly United when they discount tickets this summer?

Is a marking gauge a commodity? Probably not, but the IP surrounding every model I've seen is really well known.

[James Pallas]

I'm sure that the Tite mark is a fine tool. It was praised by many Shwatz, Cosman, Neilsen when it first came out. This decision on Drakes part was a risk management decision. To apply for a patent or not. If the cost can be justified then a patent is a good decision. If you come out with a great product with no patent then you will be copied almost without doubt. You must just weigh the costs and make a business decision. Almost everyone would be happy if Saw Stop had not applied for a patent and their favorite saw maker had the same technology. Product production is a risky business governed by laws not ethics. Ethics only come in where you intend to do harm by copying a patented product or corporate espionage, then you are unethical. If it's out there in the public domain then it is fair game. I would still buy a Titemark because it is the best regardless of cost.
Jim

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, you and I are not going to agree on this one. And I am not about to try and convert you to my way of thinking.

I will comment about your statement, "If you really believe in that perspective you should have the same attitude towards all products that copy another manufacturer's product. But that would mean you would would have a very small set of products that you could purchase. "

There is nothing in what I have written about that should suggest that copying, per se, is verboten. Only copying without permission is verboten. There is also no argument against taking an idea of another and improving it. Many of the tools we use have the footprint of others. I'd say that the Taylor gauge is more than a footprint.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I can agree with you if the phrase is "Only copying protected intellectual property without permission is verboten."

Or put another way, "There's nothing wrong with using intellectual property which is in the public domain."

Mike

[The problem with your statement is that it's way too broad and doesn't give guidance to anyone who wished to implement it. If using ANY intellectual property required getting permission from the inventor it would be almost impossible to build anything new. One person, who just didn't want to give permission (even though the intellectual property was in the public domain) could prevent someone from building a product that included that intellectual property. That's very bad public policy and certainly does nothing good for the consumer.]

[Additionally, what is the definition of "improving" a product? LN certainly copied the Stanley planes and you may say that by making them to greater tolerances that LN improved the planes. How about if someone copied the LN planes and found a way to manufacture them for a lower price so that they could be sold at a lower price? Is that an improvement? I submit it is because the consumer benefits from that.
So who's to decide what an improvement is? If you ask the company making the product they will certainly say that they improved the product and will give you a list of improvements.
On the other hand, the term "protected intellectual property" has been well defined through many court cases.]

[Pat Barry]

I honestly did not know that the Tite-Mark was first to market with this type of tool, but knowing what I know now, I'd buy the Taylor tools version Mike provided a link to. For those that still want the Tit-Mark - do you buy from Glen Drake or Lie Nielsen. I hope you say Glen Drake because then he will make more $.

[steven c newman]

Marking for a mortise....I use the tenon that will be going there, I trace around the tenon. I might knife just inside the lines. Then I just chop away.
mortise.JPG
All laid out..
big mortise.JPG
Chopped...
test fit large.JPG
Fitted. took about the same amount of time as I just took to type this out.
little 2.JPG
Laid out..
little mortise.JPG
Chopped..
litle fitted.JPG
Ready to fine tune the fit.

[Graham Haydon]

Love these threads . I find it so very amusing when people imply the behaviour of others is not somehow "ethical". Mike has made an excellent point throughout this thread. Thanks to the system he outlines, we are free to choose who we support. The system has provided us with untold benefits in our everyday life, somehow it seems "gentleman's woodworking tools" are above that system. Thank heavens a cap iron, Stanley pattern frog or a Norris adjuster were seen as fair game otherwise we'd be beholden to monopolies. However, at least we'd be comforted by the ethical warmth of the infinite IP rights those companies would have.

It's interesting that Ron is posting here. I would assume none of his work is patented? When I think of his products, I think of fairly priced irons of a good quality. The reason he's a success is the quality of his irons, the service he provides, his knowledge and experience, the range and the price point. His offering was also well timed as the quality of the plane irons in the 90's was perhaps not so great for working very hard timbers. Shows how you can be a success without patents. If I've described the business wrongly, Ron, please do correct me. On a side note, the T10 water quenched plane irons supplied here are really very, very good. As I understand it water quench is very difficult, but the Quangsheng team really did get something right and different to others too.

I fully understand why both sides of this argument choose their path, further I think it's brilliant that people choose to support certain makers of certain tools. I would do the same if I thought an independent maker had discovered a fresh and effective way of producing a tool that made my life easier. Perhaps someone could tell me the innovation in a tite mark? All the gauges pictured, to me look like engineer made gauges that pretty much do the same thing.

[Mike Henderson]

Perhaps someone could tell me the innovation in a tite mark? All the gauges pictured, to me look like engineer made gauges that pretty much do the same thing.

I think the innovative part of the Tite-Mark is that it uses an adjustment mechanism that is similar to a turnbuckle (with right hand threads on one end and left hand threads on the other). It allows the gauge to be adjusted with one hand.

The Taylor Tools gauge uses the same mechanism but the rest of the tool looks quite different from the Tite-Mark.

I agree that Ron Bontz will never have to worry about someone using his intellectual property. His tools are made completely from his talent and skill, not from any mass production. If anyone would like to copy Ron's work they have a significant learning curve and they better have a lot of talent.

Mike

[Oops, you meant Ron Hock. Sorry for the misunderstanding - I just had Ron Bontz's name in my head. But I'll leave my kudos for Ron Bontz.]

[Graham Haydon]

And that's what all the interest is for? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1-pQw2l3U I do similar with my wooden gauges which have a screw fasten. Nice thing is you can hit top or bottom of the stem with the basic screw style. http://www.uktoolbox.com/products/rs...XtMaAhOF8P8HAQ The gauge looks crap and it's easy to mock it but it adjusts with one hand and works. That link should not be an affront to those who find favour with different solutions, just an option.

[Chris Parks]

Those that say IP is fair game have not experienced what it is like to have it done to them. I designed a world first product, it had never been done before. One of the people involved in evaluating and placing that product on the market decided he could do it in a way that overcame the patents in place and I got the boot from the project. That product is now sold world wide and I have never received a cent from it. To be honest I see both sides of the coin so to speak but it still annoys me that it happened and I never received any IP acknowledgement. The points made about copies being copied are good example of where the IP is public domain and has been for decades no one has the monopoly on it. My experience on reflection was brought about because I trusted people to do the right thing by my standards and I was plainly naive about business practises so in the end it was my own undoing so I have put it behind me and moved on.

[ken hatch]

+1

Ken Hatch - woodworker, philosopher and I suspect ...................... also man with an uncanny ability to find the best hole-in-the-all Mexican food establishment in any town, south of the Mason-Dixon, within 30" of entering city limits.

Now that I think about it, ....... where can I volunteer for the Ken Hatch "office of his choice" campaign?


Best, Mike

Mike ROTFLMAO.

One thing about threads like this one you can quickly figure out who you would like as a friend.

ken