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Thread: Rip Tenon Saws.......

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    Not aesthetics, allthough nice aesthetics never hurt of course. It's about what makes a really good backsaw and with that question we are back to the OP of this thread (if he is still around ).

    I don't think the quality of the steel is the most important aspect of what makes a really good backsaw. It's more about the balance of all factors, a back that isn't too heavy but also not too light, about the hangangle of the handle and how the horns embrace you hand. It's about the thickness of the blade and especially about the setup of the teeth. It's about the depth of the blade below the spine, not too little, but certainly not too much.

    I am afraid that the current makers of mass produced western saws really have no idea what they are making, despite labels telling us that their plastic handle is so "ergonomic".
    Mass produced saws are sold on the mass market of the borgs and other local hardware stores. Mostly the target customer isn't someone looking for a saw worthy of fine joinery or being handed down for generations. A century ago many saw owners knew how to sharpen their saws.

    My father told me how when he was young many farms had landing strips and a lot of rural folks owned their own airplanes. When it came time to run the machinery for planting or harvest they couldn't afford a two week delay for shipping a part to keep their vital equipment running. Likewise a person couldn't take time to run into town to buy a new saw so they could fix a barn door or a broken gate.

    A century ago, saws were sold in mass to people who were either making a living or were maintaining their farms and businesses with the tools they were buying. Many of them didn't have the luxury of 15 minute trip to the nearest store to grab a new saw if their old one wasn't doing the job.

    A $10 saw in 1900 was a much bigger (and better) investment than a $10 saw in 2000. In 1900 the average saw buyer wasn't looking for the least expensive saw. In 2000 the average buyer was likely looking for a saw to help his daughter or son build a doghouse or some other weekend project and then hang it in the garage on a nail. Many modern saws even come with a hang hole for this purpose.

    Never forget the power of 'the race to the bottom' on the quality of tools. If a company is losing sales to a less expensive product, then either the company needs to find a way to cut cost or fail. For some reason the idea of getting the quality for which you pay has been forgotten. It may have started with nonreturnable bottles and disposable lighters.

    Remember the words of John Ruskin:

    There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    161
    Ron,

    I'm sure you've heard the end of the quote, but have you ever read the beginning? Comes to mind in times like these....

    “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly.
    So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” Theodore Roosevelt
    Last edited by Pete Taran; 04-29-2017 at 4:23 PM.

  3. #78
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    Jun 2012
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    Lubbock, Tx
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    732
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Taran View Post
    My point is, that what we see today is altered by natural selection?
    Then how do you explain the platypus? Huh, huh? Also, how many of the saws you checked were from the Galapagos? jk

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom - Devon
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    Derek, I might be wrong but I know you've been critical, sometimes strongly of Paul Sellers at times, perhaps others too and even other posters on forums. I think we all have, that's the nature of heated discussions. I'd be wary of too much virtue signalling. I'm pretty sure I have been critical in equal measure too.

    In reference to marketing videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te3VuCoTLvE is an example, "spoiling the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar" springs to mind. The tool maker featured in the video is excellent in regards quality and customer service, but it is a poor demo. But perhaps Warren has a point with how tools have been developed in recent times. I tip my hat to Lie-Nielsen, Mr Taran, Mr Leach who have tried to revive what was a close to apocalyptic state of some tools into a viable business. However I do also try and listen to those that have immersed themselves in methods from the zenith of hand tool woodworkers. After all it's those professional woodworkers who have valuable insights about being better woodworkers.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
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    Ok, Picked this "thing" up Friday for $7...
    saw and drill.JPG
    4" x 24" WS. Thing weighs a ton. 11ppi, teeth have quite a bit of set. Teeth looked like they have been recently sharpened.
    Might be a little big for a Tenon saw. Thinking this was amde betwen 1945 and 1953.....
    DSCF0002.JPG
    Handle is a bit on the blocky side. IF it is going to be in my shop as a user, the blockiness will have to be "fixed".
    Sooo, what kind of steel would this old saw have? Compared to my 5" x 28" C.1917 backsaw?

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
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    4,722
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    Derek, I might be wrong but I know you've been critical, sometimes strongly of Paul Sellers at times, perhaps others too and even other posters on forums. I think we all have, that's the nature of heated discussions. I'd be wary of too much virtue signalling. I'm pretty sure I have been critical in equal measure too...
    Graham, of course I have disagreed with others on this forum ... and other fori - that is what fori are about - discussion and debate. What I ask of others - and I attempt to follow this "rule" as well - is that one provides something to back up a statement, and not just disagree or offer up generalities.

    Now I do not intend to take this any further in this thread. If you wish to discuss it with me, then PM. I am more than happy to exchange thoughts with you.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  7. #82
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    Oct 2010
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    Australia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    Derek, I might be wrong but I know you've been critical, sometimes strongly of Paul Sellers at times, perhaps others too and even other posters on forums. I think we all have, that's the nature of heated discussions. I'd be wary of too much virtue signalling. I'm pretty sure I have been critical in equal measure too.

    In reference to marketing videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te3VuCoTLvE is an example, "spoiling the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar" springs to mind. The tool maker featured in the video is excellent in regards quality and customer service, but it is a poor demo. But perhaps Warren has a point with how tools have been developed in recent times. I tip my hat to Lie-Nielsen, Mr Taran, Mr Leach who have tried to revive what was a close to apocalyptic state of some tools into a viable business. However I do also try and listen to those that have immersed themselves in methods from the zenith of hand tool woodworkers. After all it's those professional woodworkers who have valuable insights about being better woodworkers.
    +1 on your comments Graham. You can add David Barron to that list.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 04-30-2017 at 12:04 AM.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    United Kingdom - Devon
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    339
    No problem Derek. It seems I've been offered to "take it outside" woodworking forum style . I'll finish my pint and meet you there

  9. #84
    The metal in the saws of the past worked fine for their intended purpose.
    Most of the saws today do not compare to the past saws, unless one is willing to part with his money.
    The metal used today in the tool and die shops is by far a superior metal because their is always a need for a better type off steel for the problem at hand. And someone is willing to spend the money to make that better type of steel.
    Spring steels today are so refined they make the steels of the past seem crude.
    AS the population increases so do the production runs of tools stamping out parts by the millions. Only because of better metal.
    Follow the money. Most of it is in military spending in this country. The need for superior weapons has led to superior metals. That is why we have better saws today.

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Australia
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    Follow the money. Most of it is in military spending in this country. The need for superior weapons has led to superior metals. That is why we have better saws today.
    I need to organise a new makers stamp for my backsaws. M.O.A.B. (Mother Of All Backsaws).
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 05-01-2017 at 1:01 AM.

  11. #86
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Lucas, Texas
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    867
    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    I need to organise a new makers stamp for my backsaws. M.O.A.B. (Mother Of All Backsaws).
    Will that have GPS? ...I may need one.
    Molann an obair an saor.

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