Rip Tenon Saws.......

[Ron Bontz]

Ha. Just went back to the original question.. Answer....Flip a coin.

[Kees Heiden]

Yea of course, rollers! Initially water powered, later with steam power and I would say more in America then in Europe. Saw manufacturing was much more small scale overhere.

I have found that you need some really big presses like I could use at work, to fold the heavy gauge brass an to get it really flat. A roller might be easier. A simple hammer and anvil works very well too!

[lowell holmes]

Ken,

My LN disposable saws are over 10 years old, shiny new looking. I do not consider them disposable saws. The backs on my saws have never needed adjustments. I have a dovetail, tenon rip, and tenon cross cut. I smile every time I cut a dove tail or a tenon.

[steven c newman]

Just got mine back from the sharpening service..
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Played around with it. The space in the middle was coping sawed out ( Millers Falls No. 43)
Gave the saw a little more work..
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Handle was reshaped to fit my hand better
Also got back one of my 2 D-8, 8ppi crosscut saws..
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Gave it a test drive..
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8ppi does cut a bit rough....two of those D-8s?
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And, I can read the etch on both of these...One is a little newer than the other..

[bridger berdel]

I have mostly old saws. My till is full of a variety of disstons and such for which I probably paid an average of $5 each. some needed a fair bit of work, most just need sharpened. I fail to see how a $300 saw could perform that much better than they do, or really any better at all. If one of you premium saw makers would wish to send me a trial saw I'll do a side by side comparison and publish the results here.

on the subject of modern steels-
crucible steel production lacked the process controls of modern analytical metallurgy, but made up for it pretty well with an intensive if subjective grading system. A quality saw from that era will have excellent quality steel appropriate for a saw. I'm sure that a modern saw with the right grade of spring steel will cut fine, but the more exotic alloys like a2 and the powder metals are not really appropriate for saws. most of the advances in steel in the last 75 years have been in machine tool cutting bits and punch forming alloys.

the current obsession with thin kerfs fails to impress me. a thick plate with a heavy back has the weight to drive the saw without much effort on the sawyer's part. I suppose that if you needed to saw a fine slot rather than remove waste a thin plate would be appropriate.

handle form is important, and not so much for aesthetic reasons. the bulky blocky shapes lacking horns and presenting corners into the palm of the hand do not make a satisfactory handle. hard point saws with tooth patterns for green softwoods are useless for any jointery cutting.

[Gary Cunningham]

Thanks for all of the comments.

I ordered the LN saw from Craftsman Studio.

[Dan Sink]

Timely thread for me, I was just going to search to see if there had been any discussion on tapered tenon saws. I'm looking to pick up (or order) a LN tenon saw at Handworks in a few weeks and was curious if anyone had an opinion on the tapered version v. regular version? I read a Chris Schwartz article where he said he prefers tapered joinery saws. However, I have to admit I just don't like the look of the tapered saw. I know its a small thing, but I'm one of those people who gives value to a tool's aesthetic. The tapered saw just looks "off" to me, but if its functionally better I'll go with it.

C.S. touts the ability to cut to the shoulder line on the toe side without overcutting on the heel side (if I was understanding the article correctly). I guess I don't see how a taper on the back of the saw assists you in keeping the heel of the teeth side elevated. Does it do something visual that just naturally makes you raise the heel?

Are there other benefits of the tapered version of the saw?

[Warren Mickley]

Timely thread for me, I was just going to search to see if there had been any discussion on tapered tenon saws. I'm looking to pick up (or order) a LN tenon saw at Handworks in a few weeks and was curious if anyone had an opinion on the tapered version v. regular version? I read a Chris Schwartz article where he said he prefers tapered joinery saws. However, I have to admit I just don't like the look of the tapered saw. I know its a small thing, but I'm one of those people who gives value to a tool's aesthetic. The tapered saw just looks "off" to me, but if its functionally better I'll go with it.

C.S. touts the ability to cut to the shoulder line on the toe side without overcutting on the heel side (if I was understanding the article correctly). I guess I don't see how a taper on the back of the saw assists you in keeping the heel of the teeth side elevated. Does it do something visual that just naturally makes you raise the heel?

Are there other benefits of the tapered version of the saw?

Cutting to the line without over cutting is a matter of experience.

On a back saw, the toe is the most vulnerable spot for wobble. The heel is more stable because the handle is farther down toward the teeth and helps greatly with stability. This is especially a concern with the modern saws because they tend to have deeper depth of cut than historic saws. Some modern tenon saws have four inches or more under the spine. Having a folded back gives a small amount of help here because the plate can be put in tension.

In traditional work, for larger tenons, the tenon saw was used for the shoulder cuts cross grain, while a handsaw was used for the rip cuts. So a great depth of cut was not necessary.

With a tapered saw, the back is closer at the toe end for stiffness, and the back is farther away at the heel end so there is clearance for the handle. The desirability for clearance is a factor in the angle of the saw handle; on small back saws the handle is up higher, so you don't bump into it when sawing.

[Dan Sink]

Thanks Warren!

[Pete Taran]

Dan,

Disston made countless numbers of backsaws, and none were tapered. I don't know of any American maker who made any either. Seems to be a British phenomenon, if it's even real. Show me a tapered saw, and I'll show you a saw that has fallen to the floor. So, don't feel like you are missing the boat if you just get an "ordinary" parallel bladed saw.

[Warren Mickley]

Dan,

Disston made countless numbers of backsaws, and none were tapered. I don't know of any American maker who made any either. Seems to be a British phenomenon, if it's even real. Show me a tapered saw, and I'll show you a saw that has fallen to the floor. So, don't feel like you are missing the boat if you just get an "ordinary" parallel bladed saw.

smith key 1816.jpg
I don't think these had "fallen to the floor"

[Pete Taran]

Did I not say that it was a British thing, if at all? But then again, those are line drawings, and not real saws. Any I've ever seen has the spine lifted out of the handle and clearly has fallen to the floor. I'm not discounting that the Brits did this for some reason, just saying it didn't take hold in America.

[Warren Mickley]

Real eight inch saw
groves-8inch saw.jpg

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

Like I said, show me a US made saw with a supposed tapered blade, and I'll show you one that has had the spine altered by a drop to the floor. You can see how high the spine is above the handle and the line on the blade where the steel used to be covered. If you want to believe there was a secret saw making cult that made these types of saws in the US, that is your prerogative. I've handled 10s of thousands in the last 25 years, and have yet to see a convincing example. Show me a catalog or line drawing from Disston, Atkins, Simonds or any other maker showing this feature, and I will be a believer. I have catalogs by all of them, and it's conspicuously absent. See this example from 1892 below:

backsaws.jpg

[Stewie Simpson]

Dan,

Disston made countless numbers of backsaws, and none were tapered. I don't know of any American maker who made any either. Seems to be a British phenomenon, if it's even real. Show me a tapered saw, and I'll show you a saw that has fallen to the floor. So, don't feel like you are missing the boat if you just get an "ordinary" parallel bladed saw.

British Saws & Saw Makers from 1660; by Simon Barley; page 57;