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Thread: Rip Tenon Saws.......

  1. #1
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    Rip Tenon Saws.......

    I want to learn how to cut tenons by hand. Is the Lee Nielson tenon saw $60.00 "better" than a Veritas?

    I am not wanting to start a ruckus.

  2. #2
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    Yes. I don't have the Veritas tenon saw, but I have the dovetail and carcass saw and I have all the Lie-Nielsen versions of the same plus a crosscut and rip tenon saw. The Lie-Nielsen advantage, in my opinion, is the brass back. The Veritas back flexes and the Lie-Nielsen is stiff. Yes, bad form would be the reason to get flex in the first place, but for me I would rather have a stiff back. Also the Lie-Nielsen handles are a work of art.

    Note: certainly the Veritas saws are one of the best buys out there, and I use them for rough work and sappy wood that I don't want to use a more costly saw on. They are darned fine saws, and for a long time that was all I had until I got a deal on a used LN tenon saw and fell in love. Lie-Nielsen saws, in my opinion, are perfect. I have just completed the full set except the panel saws. I have two Wenzloff panel saw plates that I need to get off my butt and make handles for. No need for the LN if I finish those.

  3. #3
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    This is the waste from a mahogany tenon on my Roubo build. This is straight off the saw- almost looks planed. I held it in the light at an angle that would most show the saw marks. Granted that's partly due to my awesome sharpening skills (gloat) but it's a quality saw that makes it all possible. By the way, you know your dad is a woodworker when you have mahogany building blocks. I gave all my offcuts to my child and I am proud to say they are all square enough to build tall towers- straight from the saw.

    image.jpgimage.jpg
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 04-21-2017 at 6:11 AM.

  4. #4
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    The Veritas saws are quite often called "best bang for the buck" saws or something similar and considered good saws. At $60 (new at well over $100 believe), the LN saw should be worth trying out unless it has somehow gotten solidly trashed. I would have to believe that you could always sell it on for what you paid. Oh, and they are reviewed regularly as being good saws and often as a better "bang for the buck" type saws in comparison to the truly boutique $200-$300+ saws. I would try it out because new Veritas saws should always be available if you end up not happy with the LN, a, perhaps, unlikely event.
    Last edited by David Eisenhauer; 04-21-2017 at 12:28 AM.
    David

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Cunningham View Post
    I want to learn how to cut tenons by hand. Is the Lee Nielson tenon saw $60.00 "better" than a Veritas?

    I am not wanting to start a ruckus.
    Keep in mind that the LN saw may be well used and need to be sharpened. If it is the 16" long plate, this is an excellent saw. This length is considered long for most work. I have a Wenzloff 16" which I like, but more often use a 14" Gramercy.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Eisenhauer View Post
    The Veritas saws are quite often called "best bang for the buck" saws or something similar and considered good saws. At $60 (new at well over $100 believe), the LN saw should be worth trying out unless it has somehow gotten solidly trashed. I would have to believe that you could always sell it on for what you paid. Oh, and they are reviewed regularly as being good saws and often as a better "bang for the buck" type saws in comparison to the truly boutique $200-$300+ saws. I would try it out because new Veritas saws should always be available if you end up not happy with the LN, a, perhaps, unlikely event.
    I believe he is buying new and $60 is the price difference. If he were getting a LN for $60, I would have advised against it, and then asked where this saw was so I could go get it myself. :-)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Keep in mind that the LN saw may be well used and need to be sharpened. If it is the 16" long plate, this is an excellent saw. This length is considered long for most work. I have a Wenzloff 16" which I like, but more often use a 14" Gramercy.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    lack of clarity on my part: As Malcom said I will be buying a new saw, and the price difference is $119.00 for Veritas vs $179.00 for the LN.

  8. #8
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    I have a few of the smaller size rip Veritas and the LN carcass saw. I use both depending on the size of the tenon. As with many things, the skill of the user can out weigh the quality ($) of the tool. I'm sure a skilled sawer could saw a better tenon with my Veritas than can I saw right now with my LN. I tend to go for the best I can or are willing to afford if for no other reason than to eliminate one variable in the learning curve (is it the tool or is it me?).

    I'm sure either saw can produce great results with practice.

  9. #9
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    I have three Lie Nielsen saws. I would not be without any of them.
    I have the dove tail, tenon cross cut, and tenon rip. They all have their place in my till.

    A dove tail saw, a carcass saw both cross cut and rip.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 04-21-2017 at 10:34 AM.

  10. #10
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    Mine is just a Blued Steel backed Disston No.4......14", 11 ppi, filed rip.

  11. Here's the thing. Saw skills include sharpening the saw, not just cutting stuff with it. Buying an expensive new saw to "eliminate variables" as a short cut to sawing skills is handicapping yourself.

    The current state of saw manufacture is quite poor. The very best modern saws are about on par with tradesman class saws of 100 years ago, except with exotic wood handles and very high prices. The current saws offered for tradesmen are an embarrassment.

    Bad axe saw:
    Bad Axe 14" Sash Saw ($265 base price); Filing: Hybrid-Cut , Pitch: 12 ppi , Gauge Plate: .025 (add $10), Sawback: Copper-Plated Carbon Steel (add $35); Species: Mesquite (add $50), Fasteners: Niter-Blued Carbon Steel Slotted Nuts (add $27.50), Hand Size: (L). Price: $387.50

    From a 1917 ford motor catalog:
    2 Passenger, 4 Cylinder, 20 Horsepower, streamline hood, large radiator and enclosed fan, crown fenders, black finish, nickel trimmings, fully equipped, except speedometer. Price $345 f.o.b Detroit.

  12. #12
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    Bridger,

    With all due respect, this is not a fair comparison. Modern saws, for the most part, are heads and shoulders above their 100+ year old counterparts. You can quibble about the aesthetics, but when it comes down to it, the modern, high carbon spring steel that is made today is superior in every way to the older stuff. Completely consistent hardness from batch to bactch (52R), 100% straight, mirror like finish to name a few. None of those things were possible 100 years ago. If Henry were alive today, he would be amazed at how the high carbon steel market has evolved since he started it back in the 1860s.

    As to the relative value of a dollar from 1917, we can do some comparisons. The 1918 Disston catalog lists the price of a 14" Disston #4 backsaw at $18 a dozen. So, by the powers of higher math, each saw cost $1.5. There are websites that can relate what a $1.5 was worth in 1917 vs today. The first one I found reveals the following, comparing $1.5 in 1917 to 2015, the most recent data available:

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative price worth of $1.50 from 1917 is:
    $27.70 using the Consumer Price Index
    $18.70 using the GDP deflator

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative amount consumers spend worth of $1.50 from 1917 is:
    $56.10 using the value of consumer bundle

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative wage or income worth of $1.50 from 1917 is:
    $99.90 using the unskilled wage
    $161.00 using the Production Worker Compensation
    $145.00 using the nominal GDP per capita

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative output worth of $1.50 from 1917 is:
    $449.00 using the relative share of GDP

    I would argue that the value to consider is either the production worker comparison or the relative share of GDP. In one case, a modern saw costs not quite twice as much as it's 100 year old counterpart. I would argue that it is twice as good for the reasons I stated above. Using the share of GDP which I think it more accurate, it shows the modern saw is a bargain compared to 100 years ago.

    Using your example of the car yields the following:

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative price worth of $345.00 from 1917 is:
    $6,380.00 using the Consumer Price Index
    $4,300.00 using the GDP deflator

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative amount consumers spend worth of $345.00 from 1917 is:
    $12,900.00 using the value of consumer bundle

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative wage or income worth of $345.00 from 1917 is:
    $23,000.00 using the unskilled wage
    $37,000.00 using the Production Worker Compensation
    $33,200.00 using the nominal GDP per capita

    Current data is only available till 2015. In 2015, the relative output worth of $345.00 from 1917 is:
    $103,000.00 using the relative share of GDP


    That puts that Ford model T somewhere between a Ford Explorer or a well blinged Range Rover in value, but which vehicle has more features? I'd rather be driving either the Explorer or the Range Rover.

    Just say, they call it progress for a reason.

  13. #13
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    I don't agree with Bridger either.

    I have three LN tenon, dovetail saws. I sent them back to LN for sharpening, but I have since that time, sharpened them two times.

    I also have D7 and D8 saws, crosscut and rip. I have retoothrd one of them and sharpened all of them. It is not a difficult skill to develop.

    Google "Ron Herman saw sharpening"

  14. #14
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    +1 for not being difficult. If you don't want to spend $25 for the video, just stop by vintagesaws.com and learn how to do it for free. Been educating the masses for free since 1998.

    Lowell, I do hope you have a partnering agreement with Ron considering how much you shill for him.

  15. #15
    Both the Veritas and the LN saws are effectively disposable saws because they each have milled spines vs. folded. Full discourse I have and use both. The milled back does not tension the saw plate the same as a folded back and if the saw plate is "kinked" or curved there is little you can do to straighten it. Mark Harrell has an excellent article on straightening saw plates at http://www.badaxetoolworks.com/retension-a-backsaw.php . Of the two saws I would buy the cheaper Veritas knowing if anything happened to it I could replace with out a big loss of investment. Then once I was ready to buy a top line saw go for a Bad Axe or other saw with a folded back.

    ken

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