[OP]
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I've been pursuing the difficult task, at least for me of learning not only woodturning but other aspects of woodworking. While studying handplanes I discovered there at least two basic types, those that have a bevel up and bevel down cutting blades. Does this correspond in any way to the scrapers and gouges that we ride the bevel on in woodturning?
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IMO the short answer is no. Bevel up/bevel down has more to do with evacuation of material and an easier way to deal with contrary wood with blade changes and micro-bevels. One "rides the bevel" with a hand plane by necessity as the bevel is the sole of the plane. There are those that prefer up or down, and those of us that own both.
The only similarity I can think of would be the use of various grind angles on gouges = various bevel up angles on a plane. Both create an effective working angle.
Just my thoughts. Others may have a different take.
Last edited by John Keeton; 04-25-2017 at 5:31 PM.
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I've done a fair amount of planing with both bevel up and bevel down planes. The difference in these planes with respect to the blade is insignificant. The choice of the up or down bevel versions is more based on the sharpening, cost, adjustment features and comes down to personal preference. I like the bevel up versions. The plane bodies are just the holder for the blade that is very slowly pushed through the wood, very slowly relative to the speed that most of us turn at. The blade probably most closely resembles a skew rather than a scraper or gouge. I guess you could say that the plane body is the "bevel" but I don't see any relationship to turning.
My advice is to put away the planes and get back to turning.
Cheers,
David
[OP]
Contributor
I thought the purpose of the plane sole was to guide the blade along the contour of the wood surface. The longer the sole the more it samples that contour. The contact of the blade with the wood and the configuration of it is what determines the cut and how the wood is evacuated. In other words, the blade is acting really like a chisel without the ability to sample much of the contour of the wood except for what is nearby. I understand that chisels can be used in either the bevel up or down position depending on how you want to cut the wood. This may all have nothing to do with woodturning but the notion first came to me when Robo Hippy mentioned in one of his videos that not every woodturner agrees on whether certain cuts are scraping or whether the wood is sliced. I thought there was something to be learned with the question in my original post.Originally Posted by John Keeton
Member
Well, I have a lot more experience with lathe tools than hand planes. I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that with the hand planes, with the bevel down, that is more for slicing off shavings, and with the bevel up, it is more of a scraping plane and acts more like a card scraper. More difficult to get the more acute cutting angle with the bevel up. In either case, you do not rub the bevel as you cut. With the bevel down, you rub the sole of the plane, which is for leveling/flattening, so not quite the same thing...
Then there is 'how sharp is sharp' part....
robo hippy
Contributor
The larger or more obtuse the working angle (measured between the bevel, or contact surface, and the evacuation angle, the less aggressive the cut. On a gouge, think 60-80* bottom feeder. On a plane, think a high angle frog on a bevel down, or a more obtuse bevel on a bevel up plane. With the plane or gouge, the result is usually a more shallow cut, less removal, and a less risky cut. With a plane, a high angle is better on figured wood, and sometimes the same is true with a gouge on contrary wood.
Again, riding the bevel with a gouge is elective, i.e., not forced. One doesn't have to have the bevel against the wood, though in most instances that is preferred. It would be very difficult to use a plane without "riding the bevel." A shorter plane - #4, for instance, is a smoothing plane, while a longer plane - #6 (jack) or #7-8 (jointer) flattens. As you indicated, it engages more of the surface and is less likely to follow the undulating surface.
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Interesting observations John. I have more experience with hand planes than gouges so thinking about the similarities and differences between the two is helping me understand the dynamics a little better.
RD
Contributor
When I first started wood turning perhaps 5 or 6 years ago I had some great catches when using a skew on a spindle. I actually tried using a hand plane on the top of the spindle with the plane at about a 45 degree angle. It actually worked surprisingly well and with a modicum of care, no catches. But it only worked on straight cylinders and straight cones. So in this case, and in response to the OP, the handplane and a skew are or can be very related.
Member
With a plane, the cutting angle is the angle between the front edge and the sole, since the blade is fixed to the sole. With bevel down it is the angle the blade is held at referenced to the sole. With bevel up it is the angle the blade is held at referenced to the sole plus the blade angle, usually 25-30 degrees.
Most would agree that less than 45 degrees is cutting, and 80 degrees is scraping. I've heard Ellsworth say 60 Degrees is cutting. So with these caveats, I agree with Reed.
Member
The difference between scraping and cutting has nothing to do with the bevel angle, and every thing to do with the shear angle. Scraping cut is scraper flat on the tool rest. Take the same scraper up on edge at 60 or 70 degrees and you have a high shear angle for clean cuts, and with the correct nose profile, you can rub the bevel. BOB tools are mostly in the 60 to 80 degree bevel range...
robo hippy
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