Jumping through hoops

[John Lifer]

Whew! Bill, Scott and then Mike made a 90 degree turn! But I agree more than 100%! I learned to work with my hands growing up. I wasn't ALLOWED to sit on my can and lay around on the weekends. If I didn't have a paying job, I helped family work. Sounds like a lot of you did the same. Yep, I pandered my daughter, but she's learning! Got her first degree, which between scholarships and me, almost 100% paid for. But after getting it, and not wanting to get married, she found out it wasn't really worth much. So she went back to get a degree that would provide a true job and career. Just finishing up and has good job lined up already pays well, will make average of $25+ an hour. One of her close friends, quit a decent job at a credit union because they kept pressuring her to move up. Sharp mind, could have been branch manager in a year if she had 'wanted' to. No, work for $8.65 at local daycare! WTH! And her livein works at Chucky the Cheese as a technician making a dollar more than that. What are these 'adults' thinking? And they are all over 25!

[Bill George]

The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.

[Jeff Body]

People aren't coming to us because we are too cheap and don't post prices, they are coming to us because there's no other option. The majority of people aren't asking for prices, they just need it done, and done now. They pay for it, that's not the issue. It's easy to say "Well, charge a 100% more for a rush job to work the weekend". Okay, well, when you do that, and you still get the work, it still means you have to work the weekend. This last year, I cut my weekend work done drastically.

At this point, if you have a wedding or you need something for an event, and it's tomorrow or the next day, then we are generally declining them. However, if you are a business and you have a $3,000 job that needs to done in 2 days, then we're happy to help you.

I agree you'll still be working the weekend but your most valuable time that should be spent with family and taking care of yourself will be compensated alittle more.

Also I see it all the time. Money Talks........ Big businesses will not change until it hurts them in their pocket book. Or in my field of work, things don't change until someone dies. They don't give a crap about you or your time. BUT when they go to budget for the next year and see their current year budget took a big hit because of rush charges they will want to make some changes. They will review the invoices and see they paid alot in rush charges.
That's when they'll change. It doesn't happen overnight.

[Mike Audleman]

The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.

Sigh. All too common these days Bill. I can't tell you how many simply would rather work for McD than learn something and go get a real job. One that can pay the bills for the things they don't know they need. Yet. And unfortunately by the time they realize they need those things, its too late and nobody is gonna hire a 30-something with no real experience and no real education. You pointed out prime opportunity to him Bill, he chose to walk away from it. Bout all you can do is watch him walk.

I have worked manual work. Dad made me. I didn't get a chance to sit on my duff as a kid. And I have had manual work jobs doing marine repair and other types of hands on stuff and I am not afraid of it. However, today I have a desk job programming and SQL. I prefer the desk job sometimes. But I am not afraid of picking up a hammer or shovel to get something done but I know I will pay for it later in meds and back pain (degenerative arthritis in my lower back) but I would rather do it myself than pay someone to do it. Just how I am I guess.

[Kev Williams]

This issue has nothing to do with your business of marking, cutting, engraving, etc. Its a widespread issue across virtually every sector of business I have seen (and I see a lot as a web dev). Your experiences are simply the tip of the iceberg.

There are two sources for this type of mentality that I have seen.

1. Snowflakes being pandered to in colleges by their helicopter parents and the self centered college environments....

2. Cheap china stuff. People think because they can get a $50 blueray player that every blueray player should only cost $50...

Addendum:

3. Why should they get a job when (a) they can just live with the helicopter parents until they die, and (b) any day now I'm gonna be an INTERNET SENSATION!
(I cringe every time I see that commercial with the girl and her ukelele...)

And boy, are these freeloaders in for a big surprise when they figure out mom & pop will need nursing care and eventually a $10,000 funeral (each?? Make that a cremation please!), there's no inheritance because they spent it supporting your lazy butt for 40 years, and Medicaid is going to take what you thought was YOUR house to pay for their nursing care because you were too busy doing nothing to learn about the 5-year lookback rule...

This is a healthy proportion of the current workforce pool, if they actually venture out into it... And people tell me I should hire some help. Methinks I'll have less stress doing it all myself...

[Ross Moshinsky]

Are people actually paying attention to the economic climate around them?

Please look at the rate of inflation relative to wages over the last 40 years. Now take a look specifically at the cost of owning a home and getting an education. Now look at the wealth distribution in the country. Then look at the job availability. Studies have been conducted. Many. The results are that this generation is generally no different than any of the previous.

The really funny thing, and this is my last post on this. I taught the HVAC/R program (12 years) at a community college near me, and it was pretty successful at placing good student graduates with good jobs. A relative of mine, out of high school for several years and was unable to find the job he wanted. I told him we had openings in our program for this fall and he could sign up now. Also pointed out that I made in the real world 2x what either one of his college educated parents made, perhaps more. But he said that's different, meaning I had to work with both my hands and my brain.... he wanted no part of hard dirty work. Right now at age 22 he is working for $9 an hour... at a fast serve restaurant.

By the way, this is called anecdotal evidence. I'm going to guess your program more or less filled up every semester. This means that many many young individuals used your program to get placed in a good middle class job which required hard work. So while your relative chose a different route, some other father can tell the story how his son or daughter is working hard as an HVAC tech.

I'm baffled by the idea that people seem to forget that there have always been waiters and people working in the restaurant world. It's nothing new. If he didn't work there, someone else would. Just like if he isn't an HVAC tech, someone else will be. This same exact discussion could have occurred 20 or 30 years ago. This is not unique to this or any generation.

[Bill George]

The bigger issue is Mom and Dad enabling the behavior. Plus these kids have no intentions of getting a job, let alone a well paying one that will allow them to retire, let alone supporting the old folks. God help us if we get into another land based war and need the draft for solders.

PS Ross todays HVAC Tech the work is more brains than really hard work, more skills needed than flipping a burger. Ever wonder how those large buildings and sky scrapers get cooled and heated? Our program was a two year one covering CAD drafting and computer controls for HVAC systems. The new stuff is all circuit boards and computer linked, in addition to basics. The Union program is 4 years of on the job and classroom work, my students did get a 1 year credit in that process.

[Ross Moshinsky]

The bigger issue is Mom and Dad enabling the behavior. Plus these kids have no intentions of getting a job, let alone a well paying one that will allow them to retire, let alone supporting the old folks. God help us if we get into another land based war and need the draft for solders.

You realize none of that is true, right? Again, actually look into it and see. A plethora of studies have examined exactly that you're claiming. They've all come back more or less the same. The current generation of 18-25 year old individuals is generally no different than the generation before and the generation before and the generation before.

Now let's talk real facts:

cp-2016-table-2a.png

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...daily-chart-20
http://www.epi.org/nominal-wage-tracker/

So the cost of college has increased roughly 250%, housing prices have continued to rise in most of the country, rent prices continue to rise, banks won't lend money after 2007, the 1% hold more wealth than they've ever had (by quite a bit), wages haven't come close to keeping up with all of these trends, and we struggle with creating jobs.

All of the data is available to figure out what's going on. Are you interested in the facts or anecdotal evidence?

[Scott Shepherd]

Focus people, focus No need to get into generational issues for this topic.

[vic casware]

another thing to look at is the possibility of the 2 billion less jobs by 2030 due to technology
then what will the next Generation do?

[Matt McCoy]

another thing to look at is the possibility of the 2 billion less jobs by 2030 due to technology
then what will the next Generation do?

Design, program, service, and operate that technology (hopefully).

[Bert Kemp]

My daughter and her boyfriend of 20+years both work in a restaurant, she is head cook and MGR and he is a waiter. He actually makes more money then she does but she does ok at $900 a week but he makes around 1200 a week waiting tables. So don't knock the restaurant workers, Granted you won't make that at macducks

Are people actually paying attention to the economic climate around them?

Please look at the rate of inflation relative to wages over the last 40 years. Now take a look specifically at the cost of owning a home and getting an education. Now look at the wealth distribution in the country. Then look at the job availability. Studies have been conducted. Many. The results are that this generation is generally no different than any of the previous.



By the way, this is called anecdotal evidence. I'm going to guess your program more or less filled up every semester. This means that many many young individuals used your program to get placed in a good middle class job which required hard work. So while your relative chose a different route, some other father can tell the story how his son or daughter is working hard as an HVAC tech.

I'm baffled by the idea that people seem to forget that there have always been waiters and people working in the restaurant world. It's nothing new. If he didn't work there, someone else would. Just like if he isn't an HVAC tech, someone else will be. This same exact discussion could have occurred 20 or 30 years ago. This is not unique to this or any generation.

[Pieter Swart]

I love reading this thread.

My wife and I grew up in South Africa...currently live in South Florida.

We were the last generation to be raised before corporal punishment was abolished... other words we got whipped morning noon and night...
I would like to think this is why I have no record, am able to think for myself, have a hard manual labor type of job, but pays more than most college jobs.

Yes I did go to college, so did my wife, and today, both of us are doing stuff we did not study for...
We both grew up in families where if you wanted pocket money.... what pocket money... go get a job.

Got my first job at 13, My wife got hers at 14 she mowed lawns and washed cars, did irrigation ditches and dug out a pool by age 16...I respect my wife a lot!! )

Point is:

I think most everyone here is old school like minded people, who deserve a "Big Up". I thank you for your knowledge your contributions and your stories, I get up at 5am every morning and after my coffee, this is where I come... I can't wait to see what happened and get some new nuggets.

Thanks Guys!!

[Scott Shepherd]

Glad this bumped to the top. I open email Monday morning to find an email from Saturday night, after 9:00, asking if we could do 18 sheets of plywood (4' x 8') sheets, special, non-stocked plywood I might add, by close of business Monday. So now we don't even get a full day to order non-stocked materials, get them, and do the labor?

Customer shows up, unannounced, on Friday afternoon with some of their product that needs laser work. I ask when they need it, and they say "Middle of next week would be fine". Cool, 3 days, I can live with that for this project. Calls Monday at lunch time to see if it was finished yet because they need them

[Brian Leavitt]

We charge rush fees generally for anything needed in under a week. Most people have no problem paying them, and some realize they don't need their stuff as quick when faced with paying a rush. Then there are the ones who pay the rush and still don't pick their orders until a few days after it was "needed". I really don't understand those people.

I'll generally work with customers to fulfill any special requests they want, but I won't do it free.

I had a customer last week who wanted 50 Contigo mugs engraved with a company logo - nothing but the logo. She wanted to see a proof. "OK, well it's going to look like your logo on the side of a mug, but if you want to pay for a proof, you can get a proof...." Little did I know, at the time, what a pain this would become. First proof she decided she wanted to use a different logo; second, third, and fourth proofs she wanted it moved fractions of an inch up or down; fifth and sixth proofs she wanted to see it printed out and taped on the side of the mug at different heights; seventh proof her boss decided they had to use the original logo so proofs two through six were just a waste of my time. On the eighth proof I printed the original logo out and sent her a photo with it on the side of the mug. Along with that, I sent a note that she was going to be charged $15 for each proof sent after that, so she finally approved it. I think I took too long to institute the charge-per-proof.

Now when I send proofs to customers, there is a line stating that the first change is free. After that it's $10 per proof.