Jointer Plane

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie,

While it's hard to deny that the visual appeal of your handle is striking, it has me wondering how comfortable it will be to use? When I made the first IT handle there was a lot of discussion with Patrick about what it would look like and what period it should come from. We settled on a version from around 1830 with the main consideration being comfort in use.

I'm curious about the thought process you went through to choose a much earlier handle? In my linear way of thinking, if that was the best design for a jointer plane handle, then you would see a handle on that like the planes that were made in their heyday, around 1870. Instead, you see a much more comfortable and larger grip like the photo Steve posted.

If the goal was to see how an early handle feels in use, then that's the answer. If there is another compelling reason, I for one would be interested in your thought process. I presume if you use hide glue to put the handle in place, if you don't like it you can remove it and try another design.

All the best,

Pete

Pete; Paul Sellers wrote a excellent article on "Sizing Saw Handles".

https://paulsellers.com/2014/10/ques...g-saw-handles/

You may also find the following an interesting read. Note the reason given for extending the index finger down the side of the saw handle.

Hold the saw firmly, with forefinger extended along the side of the handle.

How to hold the saw. Just grip the handle so that your forefinger extends along the side of the handle. This helps you “point” the saw along the line and ensures more accurate cuts.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2009/1...use-a-handsaw/

The finger hole within rear totes of wooden bodied bench planes during the 1700s were sized to fit a 3 finger entry, allowing the index finger to extend clear of the finger hole. No different to that seen within closed saw handles of the same circa.

regards Stewie;

[Pete Taran]

Stewie,

I'm very familiar with the concept of the three finger grip with saws, it has remained that way from the beginning. You don't see many saws made with tiny, uncomfortable, oval holes in their handles though. They evolved, just as plane handles did to maximize control and comfort. It's that notion I'm inquiring about, what was your motivation for using an early, not as comfortable design for your scratch build plane? As I mentioned earlier, if it's to have a replica of an early 18th century plane, I totally get it. If it's something else, I'm curious to know.

Regards,

Pete

[William Fretwell]

The straight finger increases your 'sense' of twist starting a cut but after that does nothing for the comfort of serious sawing of a board, in fact I find it a lot more uncomfortable for the serious sawing.

[Stewie Simpson]

Pete; to be honest I don't expect the rear tote on the Jointer Plane I am building to be uncomfortable in use. The 2 key measurements, the back of the grip, and the inner 3 finger hole, were both measured during design th design phase to suit my hand size. At a measurement of 3 12" across all 4 fingers, its unlikely my hands would fall within the overly small classification.

As to the reasons why there was a later shift during the 1800s to a larger sized finger hole within totes of both backsaws and bench rear totes, most likely the impetus moved away from the craftsmen providing a personalized fit, to a 1 size fits all mentality. No different to what hand tool makers from the later periods of the 1800s were providing.

Stewie;

[george wilson]

Pete: I made exact copies of original 18th. C. planes the museum furnished. The 3 finger grip was common. In fact,the grip may have taken less than 3 fingers in 18th. C.,or earlier planes. In Elizabethan times,the tote was installed right on the edge of the plane with one broad dovetail joint,sometimes augmented with a user applied nail. The key to this grip was to avoid carpal tunnel. The web between the first finger and the thumb is what did the pushing. Other fingers went down the side of the plane.

By the 18th. C.,the handle was still not yet centered on the plane body. As pictures of a jack plane I made have shown,the handle was still more to the right side of the body (from the operator's perspective). The handle was way too short for all the fingers to be used,so a few of them still went down the right side of the plane body. The handle came within 1/8" of touching the blade from beneath. There was definitely no room for all the fingers.

The pictures below show something of the development of tools (BUT,that development wasn't always in the CORRECT direction!)

Picture #1 shows a French 18th. C. style plane I made from illustrations in Diderot. Even on their long planes they had that stylized snail shell on the front. It allowed the web of the thumb to push the shell forwards,while the web of the other thumb did the pushing on the rear,just under the iron. They also used(and more commonly) a nearly horizontal rear handle which still avoided getting carpal tunnel. But,I think it was awkward. I never made a plane in that style. I didn't have to anyway: The plane was French,and the museum was primarily English,though some French presence was there. Indeed,the only original map we have of the 18th. C. town,is called "The Frenchman's Map". I found a French gun flint outside my shop,where a large elm tree was always pushing artifacts up out of the ground! French flints were a totally different color from the grey English flints. And,this one had never been used.

Picture #2 is the 19th. C. style handle I designed,and had mentioned to Stewie earlier in this thread. It accommodates ALL the fingers,and is centered on the plane body. I guess they had by then forgotten the lessons that earlier craftsmen had already learned.


Picture #3 is of a dovetail saw that was indeed the favorite of the Cabinet Maker's Shop. The very thin .015" blade was hard to get these days,unless you went Japanese,which was not allowed in the English based museum. The point of the picture,however,is to show the very small handle. You could not get all of your fingers in that handle,nor even in the larger open handle saws we made. The original maker as Dalaway. To my eye,the design of the handle is not fully developed in an aesthetic sense. But,our duty was to copy,so there it is.

Pictures 4,5,and 6 are of the jack plane I have mentioned. The handle JUST made it under the handle,very nearly touching it,indeed. Picture % shows the offset to the right,though the shadow messes up the view some. Picture #6 with the rule,gives you a way to enlarge the photo yourself and see how short the handle really is. Look at how offset the handle is compared to the WEDGE to get a better idea of how offset the handle is.

Picture #7 is of the White backsaw,from the earlier 18th. C.,and the only one in existence, though it is known to have been popular in the 18th. C. It had the short opening in the handle,forcing you to lay a finger down beside the handle in use. There are no specialized saw screws. The screws look like doctored up commonly used nuts and bolts from the period. They rather crudely filed notches in the nuts. They hadn't yet figured out how to GRACEFULLY terminate the saw back. If you look close,the blade of the saw is rounded off,and left to just stick out of the saw back. The saw back was made of thin,cheap looking sheet metal about 1/16" thick. The whole handle,to me,looks crudely designed,and the original still had rasp marks,flat spots,and other bad looking craftsmanship about it. Why it was popular,I don't know. I guess it sawed o.k.. The earlier you go,the more CRUDE the English tools were made,as a general rule. We saw tools du up from Henry VIII's Ship,the Rose. They had been buried in silt and though the iron parts had dissolved long ago,the beech wood was still pink,and remarkably just like new. I would not have liked to be stuck with those tools!

William,putting one finger down the side of a SAW handle still tends to put the force of sawing more into the web of the thumb. Put ALL the fingers into the saw handle,and the palm of the hand begins to take the force,which is what earlier tool users knew. They really wanted to avoid carpal tunnel,as if they got a severe case of it, and could not work, their families would starve. Those people used their tools all day,every day except Sundays. And those days were hours longer than we work today. I had to have both hands operated on,though I have large,strong hands.and did not work anywhere near the hours of those early craftsmen.

Stewie: I see nothing wrong with your handle.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

In the back of my mind I want to build a plane. I was thinking about starting with a plane designed to create the groove needed for a drawer bottom. What you are doing feels more difficult to me.... and lots of fun. Very nice indeed!

[steven c newman]

There was a video series out on youtube, from GE Hong ( I think, maybe under a different label, now) and he shows how to make such a groove cutting plane. I used another of his videos to craft a Traditional Chinese Edge plane.....
edge plane, with shavings.jpg
I would use a better wood than the white oak I used, though.

[Warren Mickley]

The 1870's were not the "heyday" for bench planes. By that date furniture was made in factories with machine planed boards and there were mills for flooring, mouldings, doors and sash etc. If you want to see handles designed for long periods of planing, best to look to the 18th and very early 19th centuries.

[Pete Taran]

Warren,

If you say so. I collect old catalogs and have quite a collection. I also collect wooden planes made by Greenfield. Their catalog in the 1870s is the thickest and has the most models available of all the ones I have. Also seems the competitors like Sandusky have quite a few offerings in the 1877 catalog.

Further, considering that the type 1 Stanley Bench plane dates to 1867-1869, and metallic bench planes were the death knell for wooden planes of all types, is it not logical to suggest that the 1870s was the APEX of wooden plane use and sales?

I'm sure the folks that started Sandusky tool in 1869 would have appreciated knowing that the heyday for wooden bench planes would be over in 1 year considering that is the vast majority of what they made. Such a pity.

http://sanduskyhistory.blogspot.com/...l-company.html

[Graham Haydon]

Some great insight into the demands of early woodworkers, George. Although the handle in image 2 might not be the most appropriate, the execution of it is very special.

[William Fretwell]

Yes times have changed, my niece had severe carpel tunnel from texting with her thumbs. We spend our time sharpening bevel up blades instead of using the plane. My bow saw has no other option but palm grip. As a craftsman built the whole piece he would have a full range of different activities for some relief. I find planing takes by far the longest time on a piece, many hours and hours. It is a real workout.
None of todays activities come close to the activities of 1870. If we gain an appreciation of what they did we are the richer for it.

[Kees Heiden]

Warren,

If you say so. I collect old catalogs and have quite a collection. I also collect wooden planes made by Greenfield. Their catalog in the 1870s is the thickest and has the most models available of all the ones I have. Also seems the competitors like Sandusky have quite a few offerings in the 1877 catalog.

Further, considering that the type 1 Stanley Bench plane dates to 1867-1869, and metallic bench planes were the death knell for wooden planes of all types, is it not logical to suggest that the 1870s was the APEX of wooden plane use and sales?

I'm sure the folks that started Sandusky tool in 1869 would have appreciated knowing that the heyday for wooden bench planes would be over in 1 year considering that is the vast majority of what they made. Such a pity.

http://sanduskyhistory.blogspot.com/...l-company.html

This is kind of interesting, why did those companies only start around 1870? I can name several other ones. Nooitgedagt, Weiss, Ulmia, they all started "large" scale plane making around that time. Why?

I think the handplane was still as relevant as ever, way into the 20th century. Exponential rise of the population ment an increasingdemand for wooden structures. One building boom after the other. And the small electric motor was still far away.

And the industrial revolution made it possible to mechanise much of the plane making, just as it made possible to mechanise production of furniture. And I think that is why those new planemaking factories were coming up. They were taking over the trade from the smaller planemakers of the past. And they were succesfull, for a while.

I do think, how the users of handplanes worked, changed too. More dimensioned lumber became available, so less working from the rough all the way to the finished product. At the other hand, in the 18th century lumber was being sawn into more variations then today. No problem to get some 1/2" stock. But from the sawn plank on they had to do everything by hand, and they had to do it themselves. Later in the 19th century I imagine that you could get lumber that was at least skip planes on some big steam powered planer! But it would need some real historian to dig out some valid data on this point.

[Warren Mickley]

Later in the 19th century I imagine that you could get lumber that was at least skip planes on some big steam powered planer! But it would need some real historian to dig out some valid data on this point.

It doesn't take so much of a historian to figure out what was going on in the 1870's. There is loads of documentation. This machine planed three sides square and to dimension.

Knight planing machines.jpeg
Here is 1816:
joiners.jpg

[Graham Haydon]

I think your point on a growing population and its demands is a good point, Kees. Many buildings I've worked on have material that seems likely to of been late Victorian. Most of it is very accurately machine sawn or rough power planed.
That change over to machine methods had a big influence on hand tool design for sure. It does not take long for lessons and skills learned to be lost quickly once a newer, faster and more economical way to mass produce comes into play.

[george wilson]

Actually,Warren's first post in this thread says the same thing I said about plane handles. The earlier ones were made with keeping the workers from getting carpal tunnel in mind.

Why were so many planes offered by 1870? There are many reasons. And,don't forget that EVERYTHING was offered in catalogs which were being published,and sent all over the country. The country was getting much more populated. Trains were now able to carry goods to men VERY VERY far away. You could now cross the country in a week,as compared to several months in earlier times.

The most regularily read book in our house,when I was a kid,was the Sears Roebuck catalog ! Full of things to dream about

Most people were farmers by the late 19th. C.. At least those living WAYYYYYYY out in the newly opened country. They needed some simple tools to build their houses,barns,and probably some simple furniture.

I could be going the wrong way with my theories here,but I am convinced that the advent of trains had a lot to do with the accessibility of goods that,years earlier,would have been nearly inaccessible. The rebuilding of the South might have entered into the need for more tools also.

You need to step back and think about what conditions were like by the 1870's compared to earlier times. Especially,realize that half the country was in ruins at that time,only 5 years since the Civil War.Today we live in luxury,and were free to build things we really don't need for the most part. We just build things we WANT to build. We don't have to worry about getting barns and out buildings built. Even the poorest among us have some kind of car,TV,and radio. Even a radio was a luxury in earlier times. A telephone was,too. We didn't have a TV until I was about 17 years old,but always had an old car and a radio.