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Thread: I've built a Pentz cyclone for community shop, have some questions before installing

  1. #1
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    I've built a Pentz cyclone for community shop, have some questions before installing

    I've nearly finished a Pentz cyclone for our local makerspace and am getting ready to install it.

    One thing I haven't tackled yet is the bin. Due to space, a 55 gallon drum won't fit, so I'm planning on using a galvanized trash can. I'll add supports on the outside to keep it from collapsing, but I want to get advice on sealing it and what to do for the lid. I suspect the stock lid will be more frustrating than useful.

    I've seen people using an mdf or ply lid with a circular recess that mates with the top of the can. What is the best thing to use to seal that seam, yet allow removing the lid? Should I just fill it with silicone?

    I've got to do this on a tiny budget, can't get too fancy. We've got a large CNC router, making big circles with any profile easy, but I want to avoid the cost of a bunch of attempts as I find what works.

    Similarly, what is good to use to seal the can seams? Duct mastic?

    A bit of background, if you are interested:
    A few years ago I had to put my woodworking on hold after turning a just-fallen cedar tree into a bowl - like an idiot, I didn't wear a mask or use dust collection and got very sensitized. Shows it can happen to anyone, since I'd mostly been a neander and hate sanding, always used card scrapers and made little actual dust. After months of pain my lungs calmed down and I got a Delta DC 50-850 and a giant window fan. I could tell it wasn't enough (only place for the shop is inside the house), and I was about to make a Pentz cyclone when I saw mention of a local makerspace with a woodshop. The dust situation there is as bad as you can imagine: a windowless shop behind multiple doors that must remain closed and no other source of air, deep inside a building. The tools lack proper hoods, and to date it's all about constant sweeping, emptying the plugged ducts, vacuuming the rafters, etc. See photo of my dylos on a recent really bad day (I was ripping all the lumber for the stand while someone else was using the miter and panel saws, but it shows the need for COLLECTING AT THE SOURCE.)
    High shop readings.jpg

    It will coexist with the current Thien baffle-based system for a bit, and initially I have to use my own woefully underpowered Delta 50-850 blower. We do have a beautiful newly rebuilt 5hp TEFC motor - quite a beast out of a local refinery - but after the local deadly fire that made nationwide news, we decided to upgrade the wiring this summer before that. (Wiring is sufficient as is, but nominally, and additional 3ph will be good to have.

    It will be much less than what's needed, but moves the project forward. Current Thien baffle system has 9 1/2 hard right elbows, 15 feet of 4" flex, 3 T's between table saw and DC, powered only by a twin to my delta. It also takes two people about an hour to empty and clean due to design issues. I don't know who built it, but I don't fault them... it's a hard natural law that every dust collection system must go through many iterations of not really working well before you break down and do it right.

    We can't mount it to the wall or ceiling, so I built a stand. Will build a set of walls around it for sound mitigation as a later step. Current system is located under the stairs to the upper floor, but as that's the only egress from up there I was not willing to put the cyclone there - tiny chance of fire, but after the local giant loss of life from a fire, and knowing there is no way to predict how well the thing will be cared for way down the road, I asked to put it in the shop proper away from all exits, close to code as possible.

  2. #2
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    Here's the cyclone so far:

    PentzCyclone.jpg

    The extension on top is a bellmouth reduction to 6" to match what the tiny delta blower expects. It will go away when the correct blower/impeller is added.
    Not the prettiest stand, but it was cheap, easy to build, and sturdy. I had to cut all the wood at the shop and drive it home to assemble, so had to be simple, not need any on-the-fly fitting.

  3. #3
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    If you look at the Clear Vue website for the user instructions, there's a "How to" for trash cans and lids there that might be useful http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/cont...y-instructions - first link will take you to a PDF and page 12 is the trash can mod

  4. #4
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    There's no reason that the chip bin should be metal, or cylindrical. Make the thing from scrap plywood, and make it rectangular. Make it any size that fits your layout, and makes it easy for you to empty. While you're at it, put an acrylic window in the side near the top, so you can see when the bin is getting full.

  5. #5
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    I used a 35 gallon trash can on my Super Dust Deputy cyclone. If you have a choice, buy the can with the thickest metal you can get. I didn't even try to use the metal lid since I was convinced it would be a pain to seal. I cut an MDF disk for the lid. There is a groove routed in the bottom and sealed with a piece of self adhesive weatherstripping. I used silicone on the inside of the can to seal the seams and where the handles were attached. I didn't use any interior bracing with the small blower I have, but if you get a blower larger than 2HP you may want to cut a couple of plywood rings to go inside the barrel to prevent collapse of the can.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #6
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    I don't know about Berkeley, but in San Francisco and the Peninsula, the curbside trash collection services accept sawdust in the compost bin, but it must be bagged, and the bag must be biodegradable. Lowes, OSH, and others, sell sturdy paper trash bags specifically for that purpose. The bags are 16x12x35, and hold 35 gallons. So make your chip bin with a footprint a tad smaller than 16x12. When the bin is full, drop a trash bag over it, and roll everything upside down. Reach into the bag and pull the bin out, leaving the sawdust neatly in the bag.

  7. #7
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    You may be able to give the sawdust to the botanical garden or Tilden Park and the little farm.
    For the gasket the way paint can seals are made is a ring of soft rubber tube with a short barbed joiner inside at the ends. Aquarium tubing comes to mind. Get an inch or so of a smaller tube that just fits inside the bigger one.
    Or the old favorite; mostly fill the groove with silicone. embed at least three small balls, the diameter of the desired gasket in the silicone. cover the male portion with plastic wrap from the kitchen. set the lid on and allow to cure overnight. You may want to weight eh lid down so it contacts all around and sits evenly
    Remove the lid the next day, You can leave the balls in if you will clamp the lid or dig out the balls, fill their holes with silicone and smooth to the level of the rest of the seal. Let dry overnight.
    Bill D.

  8. #8
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    Mine has a plywood box with weatherstripping around the edge of the front, which removes and installs quickly. The container for sawdust inside does not need to seal.

  9. #9
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    Hi, Kudo's to you for being concerned with dust collection, wow those particle counts were enormous.

    One thing to check on with a shared space and or collector size, where I live those systems have to be designed and certified by a licensed Engineer and inspected by the fire authorities.

    You may want to check on that in your area..................Regards, Rod.

  10. #10
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    Thank you all, some really good ideas here.
    At the shop, members usually end up taking it to spread on their yards. However, the bags stay around until someone takes them and we often have a free bags piling up. Berkeley waste mgmt said they won't accept it (though they always take my occasional bin full). I'll call Oakland's and reach out to tilden and such, great idea. I picked up an "easy bagger" thing, a large thin sheet of plastic that you roll up and stick in a garbage bag to hold it open, slides out to be put in replacement​ bag. Saw someone used it in their collection bin.

    I added a port to the lid, ended up being the hardest joint in the whole project to solder, thanks to the approach I took. Glad I had duct mastic to cover my sins.

    I love the idea of the balls to lift the can, letting it mold to it perfectly. I read it takes all the right silicone to stay on galvanized over time, but home Depot carries it.


    Rod, I'm sad to say I have to take a harm reduction approach to this whole thing, mgmt just isn't receptive. At least It's moving a step closer to right without making anything worse...
    current system is all pvc duct and also has enclosed bin, in this case a heavy 55gal drum with a very firmly locking lid, and it's in a closet under the only stairs to the second floor .
    I manage to get the go-ahead to instead the cyclone away from the stairs and shop door at the expense of floor space and noise. There's no way to locate it outside, however. The plan is to eventually vent to the roof. I'm still pushing for moving to metal duct.
    I never thought to look at rules regarding small commercial cyclones, like Oneida, Clearvue, in public spaces. I'll look into it.
    I'm also going to help another local community space with DC. From what I can tell, they are actually working very hard to meet all codes. Fact they want to do it right is why I offered, even though I am not a member of the second org. Their woodshop lacks a range of tools, but it has lots of air, at least. Big roll up door.

    Sounds like you're local, Bill? Come check out the space. We have a wide range of tools: full set of stationary ww, cnc mill (small but capable of milling steel), 9x20 metal lathe, cnc routers both big and small, metal cutting bandsaw, industrial sewing machines, laser cutter, electronics lab, etc. I admit to using the cnc router for making jigs and such, though that's distinct from my woodworking in my mind.
    It's a refreshingly friendly community atmosphere - people are always willing to help. Got a handful turning out guitars and dulcimers at present thanks to a member who is often there and extremely generous with his time. Membership is much less than techshop, but members can host guests, just need to sign waiver and be signed off on tools. I can sign people off on all the ww tools, for the rest, the classes​ are around $5 to $10, so keep us in mind in case you ever have a project that calls for something we have.

  11. #11
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    30 gallon plastic barrel soap containers are free at many car washes. Try there maybe.

  12. #12
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    This idea might work, build a rectangular box as big as possible and connect it to the cyclone. That box is a permanent fixture and does not move and has a hinged front wall that opens/closes and seals when it is shut, cyclones do not like leaks. Build some boxes that are on small wheels and can be pushed into that fixed enclosure and when it is in place is sealed all round or near enough with sealing strip. It is easy to open, pull the full box out and an empty one put in, one minute changeover maybe? If there is one thing I have learned about community workshops is that no one likes emptying the dust collection bins unless it is easy and quick to do.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

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