High School Needing a Laser Engraver - Need Advice from Experts

[Barton Scott]

Hello,

I teach high school engineering in a community of poverty in Fort Worth, TX. We recently received a donation of $25,000 to purchase a Laser engraver.

I am very frustrated at the process of purchasing these machines. No prices are listed and we are quoted "list prices" for Epilog, TroTect and Full Spectrum machines.

The profit markup on these machines and their consumables is substantial. It seems this industry has a "secret" pricing model that allows dealers to make alot more money than when buying a car.

I have to be a good steward of these funds and I would appreciate any help on pointing me resources on what a "fair" price is to pay for an Epilog Fusion M2 (90 watt), TroTec Speedy 400 (80 watt) or a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine.

This is my first experience in the Laser engraving world and it really seems the manufacturers have tipped the playing field toward the "dealers" and away from "consumers" by regulating and controlling advertising and pricing.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice.

[John Heavill]

Hi Barton,
Check both your 'private messages' and 'email'.
Good Luck.
John H.

[Keith Downing]

Hello,

I teach high school engineering in a community of poverty in Fort Worth, TX. We recently received a donation of $25,000 to purchase a Laser engraver.

I am very frustrated at the process of purchasing these machines. No prices are listed and we are quoted "list prices" for Epilog, TroTect and Full Spectrum machines.

The profit markup on these machines and their consumables is substantial. It seems this industry has a "secret" pricing model that allows dealers to make alot more money than when buying a car.

I have to be a good steward of these funds and I would appreciate any help on pointing me resources on what a "fair" price is to pay for an Epilog Fusion M2 (90 watt), TroTec Speedy 400 (80 watt) or a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine.

This is my first experience in the Laser engraving world and it really seems the manufacturers have tipped the playing field toward the "dealers" and away from "consumers" by regulating and controlling advertising and pricing.

Thanks in advance for the help and advice.

Hey Barton, what part of Ft Worth are you in (just curious)?

As per your questions, what do you see as your main use for the laser? I'm mainly asking because the 80 and 90 watt US made machines are very high end, more like production shop level. I wonder if you couldn't get the same level of teaching experience for the kids with a significantly smaller machine? Maybe something more "medium" sized? And then you would have some money left for a few years worth of supplies and teaching materials.

I'm afraid I can't quote you an exact price of what any of those machines should cost, but I do have some contacts at Trotec, Epilog, and ULS from the NBM show that they just had there in Dallas if you're having problems getting through to anyone. Also, I don't know how easy it is go qualify, or if they all even still offer them, but I know some of the companies used to have a small discount for non-profits.

[Kev Williams]

As for laser dealers getting more money per laser than car dealers per car, there's a simple reason for that: Cars sell by the millions, laser engravers sell by the hundreds. You can't realistically expect the same commission-to-selling price ratio between the two.

That said, like Keith I'm curious as to your expectations. I've done very well the past 15 years with a 25 watt, a 35 watt and 40 watt lasers. I have an 80 watt Chinese laser, and while the extra power is nice when cutting, I mostly engrave with the thing, at 30% or less power settings. 80 watts will cut much faster than 40 watts, but is that speed worth the extra money?-- I'm just glad my 80 watt machine was cheap. I have never been able to afford more than 40 watts worth of RF laser, an 80w machine is roughly double the price of a 40w machine...

My advice, FWIW-- if you're going to engrave more than 30% of the time, stay away from any DC glass tube laser, simply because their engraving speed is excruciatingly slow. I put up with my Triumph's slow speed simply because I have it tuned up to where the quality of engraving is top-notch, and since I have 2 additional RF lasers, the speed issue isn't such a big deal. If your plans don't include a second machine soon, get an RF (western) machine, not a DC (Chinese) glass machine...

If I had $25k to spend on a laser, I would do my best to locate a used Gravograph, Trotec, ULS or Epilog (my choices, in that order) in a 40 to 60 watt model, up to 4 or 5 years old. You should be able to nab one of these for around $15k. Insure it's in working order, buy it, then stick the other $10k in a bank or CU savings account ONLY to be used for maintenance and repairs. You'll have a great laser, and probably won't burn thru the $10 for 8 or 10 years...

[Matt McCoy]

Hey Barton,

I live in Fort Worth and have a shop in Dallas. I would be happy to visit here or there to discuss.

[Bill George]

When I was teaching and they had allotted money for a purchase there was no give back or hold for future. If you did not use the money another department got it! So I would get a good used machine and one with US service and parts. Check with the dealers near you they might have a demo or good used trade in. Unless you are going into production I would think a 30-50 watt machine would be all you need to teach with.

[Mike Null]

Why do you need a Trotec 400? A Speedy 300 should do the job and save a good bit of money.

[John Lifer]

I'd even go with trying to find a couple of Epilog minis. I'd bet you might could get two for close to the 25k. For sure one new and one used. For high school. I can't​ imagine needing a m2. Why fiber? Your teaching, not manufacturing.... Keep it simple!

[Keith Outten]

Purchase a Trotec Speedy 300 80 watt. I doubt you have the time to spend working on an old machine to keep it running. I know how limited teachers time can be given their regular workload. Don't forget to ask for the SawMill Creek discount.

Remember that most plastics suppliers will not sell materials to schools however Johnson Plastics is a good source for engravers plastics and they don't discriminate. I bought all my engraving plastics from Johnson Plastics when I ran the sign shop at Christopher Newport University and I still use them today.

If you search your local business community you should be able to find pickup truck loads of free material. Most companies would prefer to give their excess material or scraps to their local high school than throw them away. Some will be happy to sponsor a project every now and then providing free material.
.

[Matt McCoy]

Trotec is right next door, in Arlington. They're down the street from The Ballpark.

[Barton Scott]

Thanks for the tips and advice. As far as purchasing "used" equipment that is strictly prohibited through the grant. We have to purchase new equipment with a solid warranty. The wattage I really and not sure what I need. I want to be able to cut through .5 inch piece of wood or do 3D engraving. We also want to be able to engrave aluminum and stainless steel.

TroTec is certainly a machine I like, but the price tag is very expensive. The best deal I have received so far is a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine with a Rotary Attachment, two year warranty and onsite training for $24,000. SMU and The Hockaday School in Dallas both have this same machine and have given me solid references.

I would prefer an Epilog M2 because it is comparable in the cutting area. The problem I have is the "educational" vendors are just quoting "list prices" to us and coming from the business world I would never pay "list price" for anything (house, car, furniture, etc..). I have to be a good steward of the funds and that means asking for the best price possible. I certainly do not expect an equipment manufacturer to not make a profit but when you pay "list price" that is not a "win-win" for both parties.

In this case kids of poverty will be losing funds that could be used for something else to pad the margins and commissions of a sales rep.

I certainly appreciate the tip on free material! We will take all the wooden, plastic we can use.

We are not purchasing fiber - CO2 systems. I am curious about the "air assist" feature on Epilog. The Full Spectrum machine does not offer this. I do not quite understand what "air assist" means and how does that compare to a 150 watt machine without "air assist".

Our school is in the Stop 6 part of Fort Worth which is high poverty. Matt McCoy would love to have someone with expertise help advise us on the appropriate machine. One thing I really like about Epilog is the curriculum that goes along with it to make projects.

The end goal is to actually make products we can sell to the community. Laser Engraved aluminum or stainless steel mugs. Wooden signs, Engraved Glass Awards backlit by an LED strip, Engraved Drinking Glasses, Cork Coaster Holders. The program is an entrepeneurship based approach to teach kids design, engineering but also combine it with marketing and running an actual business.

I hope this helps explain what we are trying to accomplish. If you have a contact with Epilog or TroTect where we can purchase direct so we can get a better deal that would be great. Right now we are going through Resellers.

[Keith Downing]

TroTec is certainly a machine I like, but the price tag is very expensive. The best deal I have received so far is a Full Spectrum 150 watt machine with a Rotary Attachment, two year warranty and onsite training for $24,000. SMU and The Hockaday School in Dallas both have this same machine and have given me solid references.

I would NEVER invest over $20,000 in a Full Spectrum machine. Sorry, that might be blunt, but they are not selling the same quality product the other companies you mentioned are. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I understand not being able to even consider used machines really limits your options, but please either buy a true US machine (such as Trotec, Epilog, or ULS), or get a Chinese made machine from someone like Rabbit Laser, Boss Laser or Full Spectrum for well under $10,000.

Also, I'm not really able to tell from your posts if you have had any experience at all using lasers. But some of the things you're mentioning are going to take some skill (or a LOT of practice) to accomplish before you will be putting out results that are marketable. Especially if you're trying to get the kids involved in the designing of projects, running the laser, and finishing the work.

Safety would also be a MAJOR concern for me if you're going to be working with Acrylic, and/or a high wattage machine (although you can certainly burn the place down with a low wattage machine as well).

Then you will also need a good amount of supplies to get started if you're getting into so many different things all at once: marking cups or aluminum (Cermark plus obviously the cups, brushes, denatured alcohol), cutting acrylic (different types of acrylic and cleaners if you're selling), different types and thicknesses of wood, LED lights and controllers, etc etc. I'd highly recommend you spend some time with someone who can show you how this stuff is done. Matt McCoy would be a good starting point!

Anyways, I wish you the best of luck. And my final advice would be to take your time with this decision and do your homework. Just the fact you are considering throwing $25k at a Full Spectrum laser because it is a 150 watt machine tells me you don't fully understand all the variables yet. For instance, other than cutting thicker wood, you may actually be able to do LESS with that machine than a smaller machine as they often won't fire under 10-15% power. Hope you don't take that personally, I would just hate to see you spend that type of money on a machine like that when it doesn't at all fit your needs IHMO, especially with such a generous grant to work with.

[Barton Scott]

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.

I was told I needed that high of wattage to be able to engrave stainless steel or aluminum.

I really do not care about the wattage but the work area of the Full Spectrum (40 X 24) is very good.

I will reach out to Matt McCoy as well. The goal is to have a machine that is easy to maintain, reliable and can make the projects we need quickly and with high quality.

Projects we would love to do:

1. Engraving iPhone Cases
2. Rotary Projects (Engraving Cups, Glasses)
3. Marking of Stainless Steel or Aluminum Water Bottles, Cups, Etc..
4. 3D Engraving of Wood
5. Acrylic Signs and Awards

That is why I joined this group to get advice before purchasing a machine. My initial problem though is determining what a reasonable price to pay is for a machine and which machine to use.

[Keith Downing]

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.

Ok, that makes me feel a little bit better that the machine is only $10k. LOL. I was worried someone was getting a huge "referral fee" for sending them your business.

The fume extraction system is going to be an issue with any brand laser if venting outside isn't an option. You might find out if there's any way that is a possibility, simply using a blower.

I think if you can spend some time with the american made machines you will understand the extreme difference in build quality between them and some of the Chinese machines. And that's coming from someone who owns and likes their Chinese machine.

You'll also need to figure out your air assist, as you hinted. Most of the US machines come air cooled with a small air pump built in, as that's all they need. The Chinese machines typically need an external air pump (at minimum) and many of us, myself included, have a large external air compressor feeding the machine air. Others can weigh in on this as well, but I think if you're going with a Chinese machine over 60 watts you'll probably want an air compressor.

As for the projects, I would try to focus on small (easily executable) projects that yield attractive results. Especially ones that aren't expensive to scrap. The iphone cases, cups and glasses, and acrylic signs are neat, but the overhead is higher, and every time someone makes a mistake, you're out money. And it will happen. Small wooden decorations (think holiday stuff as well), earings, puzzles, coasters (these could be wood, cork, or even something like slate) and such cost very little if you make a mistake.

[Bert Kemp]

Your not going to engrave Stainless or Aluminum with a co2 laser and stay away from full spectrum. Their cheap Chinese imports made with low grade materials. You can mark Stainless or Alum with cermark. 150 watts will be hard to dial down to engrave wood. All the materials you mentioned with the exception of the steel and alum will engrave and cut with an 80 watt laser. 1/2 wood cutting will be slow but can be done.
please do some more research on lasers and what their capabilities are.
For engraving wood, acrylic, leather, cork, glass. slate, and most materials an 80 watt co2 is pretty much as high as you want to go. If your going to be mostly cutting wood then a higher wattage would be OK

Keith thanks for the feedback. I am a novice on Laser Engraving. The Full Spectrum is actually only a $10,000 machine. The price includes a rotary attachment, cooling system, a fume collection system ($4500) onsite training for several days and warranty and supplies.

I was told I needed that high of wattage to be able to engrave stainless steel or aluminum.

I really do not care about the wattage but the work area of the Full Spectrum (40 X 24) is very good.

I will reach out to Matt McCoy as well. The goal is to have a machine that is easy to maintain, reliable and can make the projects we need quickly and with high quality.

Projects we would love to do:

1. Engraving iPhone Cases
2. Rotary Projects (Engraving Cups, Glasses)
3. Marking of Stainless Steel or Aluminum Water Bottles, Cups, Etc..
4. 3D Engraving of Wood
5. Acrylic Signs and Awards

That is why I joined this group to get advice before purchasing a machine. My initial problem though is determining what a reasonable price to pay is for a machine and which machine to use.