High School Needing a Laser Engraver - Need Advice from Experts

[Bill George]

When I was teaching at our community college we could get demo equipment at discount prices With A Warranty. Manufactures donated to us through their local dealers. You have so far not reached the right people, sounds like the Resellers still want the normal mark up! I would stay with either US based or Trotec.

[Barton Scott]

Thank You to everyone for the replies. Seems like from what I am learning I have two competing problem. First is the ability to engrave and cut up to 1/2 inch piece of wood which requires higher wattage machine and the other is the engraving and marking of softer materials.

I am leaning towards Epilog or TroTec. I have to get the Rotary attachment, exhaust fan, 2 year service, training and Cermark supplies as well as the machine and stay under $25,000.

Can anyone give me a recommendation on a specific model that meet these requirements.

I prefer the Epilog M2 series because I understand it that can be upgraded to fiber later on which I like. We may eventually get to a point where we want to cut aluminum and brass and engrave metal vs. marking but that is 2-3 years away.

I would like to know the pros and cons of 3D engraving into wood. Our main projects initially will be making engraved water bottles to sell to the Football teams.

Thanks to everyone for the help. Joining this forum and hearing from experts has made a huge difference.

[Scott Shepherd]

You aren't going to be able to cut 1/2" thick wood with anything for $25,000. Can you force it to happen? Sure, is it something that makes sense to do? No. It's the wrong tool for the job and depending on the type of wood, you might never get through it, or if you do, it'll be a pile of charred mess when you are done with it.

3D engraving into wood is an art and it's VERY slow.

In my opinion, your expectations are way off on what you think a laser can do, and do at a reasonable rate.

I also think your expectation of getting a Fusion M2, or a Trotec with the exhaust and a rotary for under $25,000 is off too.

To get to that price point, with all the options included, you need to step down on models quite a bit.

[Barton Scott]

Scott - I see by your profile you own a ShopBot. We are also purchasing a ShopBot CNC. We are getting the 48in X 96 as well. How can I use the two machines together to perhaps save me some $$ and still meet my requirements.

The 3D engraving on wood is a gotta have as well as the rotary attachment.

I would like to have something that is capable of making a US seal like the link below:

https://www.epiloglaser.com/assets/i...s/eagle-3d.jpg

We are also looking a purchasing a Roland Printer to create T-Shirts, Posters, Banners, etc...

[Keith Downing]

You aren't going to be able to cut 1/2" thick wood with anything for $25,000. Can you force it to happen? Sure, is it something that makes sense to do? No. It's the wrong tool for the job and depending on the type of wood, you might never get through it, or if you do, it'll be a pile of charred mess when you are done with it.

3D engraving into wood is an art and it's VERY slow.

Scott is correct on these two points, BUT I personally don't think it's as big of a deal as you think.

Need something to be 1/2" thick? Make it out of two pieces. We do these layered glue ups on a regular basis and never have a problem.

Or, cut a template on the laser in 1/4" and use a router or saw to cut the final piece. If you're trying to cut wood thicker than 1/4" it should really be done on a saw or with a router anyways. Unless you're buying an industrial machine with just that one purpose (which you aren't in this case).

But really, I work with my laser on a daily basis and I've pretty much NEVER said: "I wish it had more power".

Now speed, that is a different story. I definitely wish I had the speed of the American made machines; which are about 2 to 3 times faster than the Chinese machines for engraving (rastering) projects.

[Kev Williams]

This is just from my 'visual experiences' on these pages in few years I've been with the Creek--- I've seen many '3D' engravings done by laser, but (just my opinion) the results pretty much land in the 'ok' category. Including my own

The one standout 3D engraving I've seen on these pages was done with a 580 watt Kern, scroll down to post #4: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...raving%3B+kern

While you don't NEED a 580w Kern to do this engraving, you'll likely need something more than $25k will get you.

[Keith Downing]

Another thing you haven't mentioned at all, is what type of space will you have for all this?

If it will be a workshop type space you may be able to vent your exhaust outside; which as I previously mentioned will save you thousands right off the bat. Also, you might consider buying a smaller laser and also adding a CNC router in that case. This WOULD cut thicker wood, and do more 3-d style cutting; and would also give you the ability for two students to be running projects at the same time. That'd be a big plus in my book.

Of course you could also supplement with a table saw or band saw if that was easier. Although these days the liability might be too much for a school district to accept. Which is sad.

Also, to complete finished products you'll need things like paint, wood stain, sand paper, Denatured Alcohol, drills, etc. So having an area with proper ventilation and where you don't have to worry about things like overspray, or a blower or compressor being too loud would be a big plus.

If you do absolutely have to work in a traditional classroom, then I would suggest going with a much smaller, American made machine. Focus on the speed with which you can do small projects, and things like the cups and bottles, and let the big wood working projects go. You won't be able to sand/finish/paint/dry them properly in a classroom anyways. Also, you'll be paying for filters on the fume extractor if you go that route and doing wood non-stop could cause you some problems there as well.

[Michael Hunter]

Have a good think about venting before you get much further with the laser idea.

If you can vent unfiltered exhaust to the open air, then the cost is low - just a fan and some piping.
Be aware though that the smell from acrylic is extremely unpleasant/irritating after a few minutes (it starts off sweet and nice!) and the smoke/particles from wood are definitely not good for anyone's health. Lasering leather will disgust everyone within a mile downwind unless you can get the fumes up and away.

If you need a filter, you will find that a good one is going to eat up a big proportion of your budget.
Home-made filters are possible and cheap-ish (instructions in this forum somewhere), but in a school environment how will you test it so that you can say what it does (and doesn't) catch?

[Barton Scott]

We have a Makers Space dedicated for the area. Not a normal classroom. We have access to outdoor ventilation.

We are purchasing a CNC machine as well that I have used for the past 2 years.

We are looking at purchasing Jet Band Saw, Lathe, Table Saw, Router and Scroll Saw as well as drills..

The Laser Engraver we have $25,000 allocated about $5,000 for Woodshop Tools. We are purchasing a ShopBot CNC machine as well that will cut 1/2 inch wood with ease as well as Aluminum.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - I see by your profile you own a ShopBot. We are also purchasing a ShopBot CNC. We are getting the 48in X 96 as well. How can I use the two machines together to perhaps save me some $$ and still meet my requirements.

The 3D engraving on wood is a gotta have as well as the rotary attachment.

I would like to have something that is capable of making a US seal like the link below:

https://www.epiloglaser.com/assets/i...s/eagle-3d.jpg

We are also looking a purchasing a Roland Printer to create T-Shirts, Posters, Banners, etc...

The problem with 3D is that it looks amazing, but it's not practical to run. I don't know what your planning to do, you have a lot of requirements for all that equipment, but just so you know, you can't just take any image or any black/white image and make it look like that eagle sample on Epilog's site. Someone probably spent 5-8 hours making that file so that it'll look great in 3D. It's not like you can go to Google and download any vector or bitmap and hit go and an amazing 3D engraving is going to pop out the machine. It just doesn't work like that. There's a reason every manufacturers shows you 3D work that's already been done instead of doing 3D samples while you wait. Because it's very slow and the file prep is huge.

Not saying you can't do it, but just setting the expectations correctly on that.

We had a guy come in years ago, telling me he wanted 1/2" thick wood laser cut. I told him it wouldn't work, and he insisted I do it. It was various types of woods. I let him watch it run and when it was done, he took his stuff and I never saw or heard from him again. 1/2" thick with most any woods, in solid form is going to be a chore. You can fight through a couple pieces, but it's not something you want to do every day with 80W lasers. A ShopBot is a much better tool for that and routers and lasers work very well together.

It sounds to me like you already have a plan on what you are trying to make and you're trying to make the laser fit the bill, when it might or might not be the best fit. Without knowing exactly what you are trying to make, we're all just giving general advice.

[Keith Downing]

We have a Makers Space dedicated for the area. Not a normal classroom. We have access to outdoor ventilation.

We are purchasing a CNC machine as well that I have used for the past 2 years.

We are looking at purchasing Jet Band Saw, Lathe, Table Saw, Router and Scroll Saw as well as drills..

The Laser Engraver we have $25,000 allocated about $5,000 for Woodshop Tools. We are purchasing a ShopBot CNC machine as well that will cut 1/2 inch wood with ease as well as Aluminum.

This will make everything much easier IMO. I would start by talking with someone at the school to see if you can run some inexpensive aluminum exhaust tubing up to the roof. If so, I'd get a good blower, and forget about it. If not, it'd be a tough call between venting outside (through a door or window) or using a fume extractor with all the extra costs and hassles that come with that. This is a call only you (or your school) can really make since we don't know your layout and where students will or won't be walking (and breathing).

Also, if you will have all the other tools and the CNC, I would feel confident saying you could complete most projects with only a 45-60 watt US made laser. Again, the speed and durability is what you really need here, and what you're paying for.

Finally, I would take some time to try to get to know the brand reps in your area. I know you may have already started off on the wrong foot with them based on the pricing they offered. But you can often get them down a little. You can mention "show pricing" from the NBM show they just had in Dallas, or ask if they have a non-profit discount, or I think sawmill creek even has some type of discounted pricing with one of the brands (right?). But try to work with them and let them know specifically what your needs and limitations are. You might just find someone who can help.

[Barton Scott]

Thanks. We do already have the ability to tie into the external exhaust using Aluminum duct work. So that is not a problem at all.

Initially the main projects we will be using the Laser engraver for will be making water bottles, glasses and engraving iPhone cases.

My main issue is the "list pricing" approach for the vendors and the wide range of pricing for these engravers. I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

[Scott Shepherd]

My main issue is the "list pricing" approach for the vendors and the wide range of pricing for these engravers. I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

Buying a laser is not much different than buying any piece of industrial equipment. MSRP is exactly that. You have to negotiate. Get the pricing, explain to each that they are competing with other manufacturers and once the pricing comes in and you decide what you want, go back to them and tell them to sharpen their pencil one more time.

Having said that, it seems like everyone wants a deal when they are buying something, but everyone wants their max price when THEY are selling something. I've always found that odd, but none the less, it's always out there. Everyone thinks their services and products should bring in $100 per hour, but when they go to someone else's place of business, they want them to make $12.50 per hour

[Gary Hair]

Thanks. We do already have the ability to tie into the external exhaust using Aluminum duct work. So that is not a problem at all.

As long as there is something to prevent backflow then this would be a good solution. Having a filter would work really well, right up to the point that the filters are plugged and need changing - you'll not be happy with the cost of replacement filters! Lasering wood will plug them up pretty quickly, no matter what the manufacturers tell you.

Initially the main projects we will be using the Laser engraver for will be making water bottles, glasses and engraving iPhone cases.

For this you could easily get by with a Speedy 100 or a 300, no need for a 400. I'm not sure what the 100 goes for but I can guarantee you that the 400 will be way out of your budget, even with low wattage.

I have read several positive posts about Rabbit Laser Engravers. I guess they are from China but they upgrade them to US quality.

They don't upgrade the machine but they do provide support.

I am not expecting a huge discount. 10% off of list pricing seems pretty reasonable to me, but I cannot pay retail MSRP and be a good steward of the funds given to us by a philanthropic foundation. The educational reseller seems to get offended when I told them "look guys these are grant funds and I am not willing to pay MSRP pricing...You need to give me a proposal that is a 'win-win' for both parties".

I don't think you are talking to the right people yet. Contact Chris Cudmore at Trotec. He will get you the very best deal possible, I guarantee it!

Chris Cudmore
Sales Manager - Texas Region

Trotec Laser Inc.
801 Stadium Drive, Suite 104

Arlington, Texas 76011
United States

Direct Tel: +1 (817) 771-4100
Office Tel: 866-226-8505
Mail: Chris.Cudmore@troteclaser.com

[Bert Kemp]

Rabbit lasers are very good machines and built like a rock. Ray Scott will give you excellent support and service.BUT they will not 3d engrave well Use your cnc router for 3d work. An 80 watt Rabbit will do everything you want to do as far as engraving wood,leather , acrylic, and marking Stainless and Alum with cermark.