New Laser vs Used Laser

[Darryl Wagner]

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum. I just signed up this week. I am on the market for a laser. I primarily do sand carving, but I need a laser to expand my product line. I have read through many of the threads about which laser to buy, and I've narrowed it down to two name brands. I don't want to mention brands because I don't want this thread to be about the brand. I would like it to be about buying a new laser vs buying a used laser.

This thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ni-24-30-watts) really caught my attention when Mike stated "I certainly wouldn't suggest a 10 year old machine". So I have to ask. Why not? It seems to me that if I can find a 10 year old laser at a reasonable price. Have it rebuilt as new (if needed). I could get a more powerful laser, and larger bed for less money than buying new. For example I can get a used 75 watt/36x24 laser for less than a new 40 watt/24x12 laser.

I'm pretty sure someone is going to suggest job control is a feature that the used laser won't have, and that I'll need it, but I disagree. Job control simply helps with work flow. Not the laser technology, or finished quality of the engraving. If I took three identical awards with three identical engravings, each from one of the three main laser manufacturers. Would you be able to tell me which award was engraved by which manufacturer? What if I added a fourth award from a used laser. I doubt it. This will be my first laser so I don't have a lot of work for it yet. If I get that busy that Job Control is something that I'll need. I'll enthusiastically buy a new laser. Can anyone convince me not to buy a used 10 year old laser?

Darryl Wagner
Custom Engraving Studio

[Bert Kemp]

If you talking Chinese machines Buying an old machine and then putting all the new parts in to make it like new would come close to the cost of a new machine. If you could even find the parts for a 10 year old machine. Second the 10 year old technology is so out dated might not even work with a new computer. 10 year old machines most likely runs on XP or Vista both out dated and not supported. Plenty of other reasons. JMHO

[Scott Shepherd]

caught my attention when Mike stated "I certainly wouldn't suggest a 10 year old machine". So I have to ask. Why not? It seems to me that if I can find a 10 year old laser at a reasonable price. Have it rebuilt as new (if needed). I could get a more powerful laser, and larger bed for less money than buying new. For example I can get a used 75 watt/36x24 laser for less than a new 40 watt/24x12 laser.

I'm pretty sure someone is going to suggest job control is a feature that the used laser won't have, and that I'll need it, but I disagree. Job control simply helps with work flow. Not the laser technology, or finished quality of the engraving. If I took three identical awards with three identical engravings, each from one of the three main laser manufacturers. Would you be able to tell me which award was engraved by which manufacturer? What if I added a fourth award from a used laser. I doubt it. This will be my first laser so I don't have a lot of work for it yet. If I get that busy that Job Control is something that I'll need. I'll enthusiastically buy a new laser. Can anyone convince me not to buy a used 10 year old laser?

Darryl Wagner
Custom Engraving Studio

Well, I'd agree with Mike. Plus, your assumptions are not correct about Job Control only handling the work flow. That's completely false. The driver/Job Control is the power of the laser. Most manufacturers release updates to their software on a regular basis. Those updates aren't window dressing. In many cases they add very valuable improvements to how the laser fires and behaves, as well as adding additional features that make your machine more flexible. For instance, Trotec added a Photo option in their Job Control a few years back. Wasn't there before. That meant you no longer needed to buy additional software to process photos or spend time in photo editing software, getting it ready to engrave. So I disagree with your premise that Job Control software is only important in work flow.

The problem you'd need to look into is the support. Running a 10 year old machine that the company stopped updating drivers for 5 years ago, and stopped making parts for 5 years ago, can be an issue. We used to have some legacy stuff here and when it had problems, it's a royal pain to troubleshoot. When your computer dies, you have to try and find old computers to replace them with, etc. In general, it's just a pain to rely on legacy equipment. It's not something you can't do, but it can be a real pain. You aren't going to be able to buy a Windows 10 machine when your XP Machine dies and make it work, in general.

There are often great deals to be had on used equipment and I'd be looking at something a lot more current than 10 years old if it were me, trying to buy on a budget.

Just my opinion.

[Bill George]

I had great luck with my used ULS laser, it was not 10 years old maybe 8 but ULS keeps the drivers updated and parts are available.

[Kev Williams]

I've lived my entire life on used stuff. However, I've also been my own mechanic, so I'm not worried if something breaks down. With the exception of my NH rep occasionally fixing my EP modules (which aren't machines, they're computers), I've never once paid anyone to repair or maintain any of my equipment since 1974. The majority of the machines in my signture- three of the four 3400's, the 3200, the 5000, one of the 5000XT's, the IS400, IS7000, the GCC laser and the vinyl cutter, all used. My old ULS now in my BIL's possession, a 1997 model, I bought in 2002, it's still going strong...

IF you're handy with fixing things, used equipment can be great. No way on earth could I have survived in this business if all I bought were new machines. My sales income couldn't cover me AND the machines, unless I seriously raised my prices, which in all likelihood would've cut my business in half.

But if you're the type that pays to have your equipment repaired, new may be the way to go. And Steve brings up a good argument for new due to parts availability for certain older machines. One of the things I like about New Hermes, other than (power supplies aside) they're bulletproof (knock on my head ), is that I can still get parts for my 1990's engraving machines. And Fred Schwartz (Q1E) has pretty much everything I need for the 80's machines, CNC machines anyway...

As for things like "job control"... I'm sure it's great if you have a use for it, but (and this is just my opinion) based on all I've read about it, I can't find one thing it does that would benefit me. But, one would have to watch me work for a few hours, and see how I do things to see why A vast majority of us get along without it, so all I'm saying is, job control shouldn't be a deal maker or breaker. Just a possible bonus if you decide the Trotec is better.

It's a shame that NH/Gravograph's CS reputation is so bad. But then, all we ever hear is the bad, no one ever mentions the good. Fact is, what little I've needed their CS in 43 years (like, 3 times) I've had no issues with them. The shame is, these pages are almost devoid of Gravograph references, when the fact is they build the best engraving machines, period.

Since this is a 'used or new" thread, my last (many) word(s) on that-
These pics were taken Dec. 6, 2004, the day my LS900 arrived,
with me muckling it around, Bruce, my NH rep (has been since the 70's, still is), and my dad...
900dayA.jpg900day1B.jpg

Maintenance and repairs done to this machine in the 4,541 days I've owned it:

many years ago the LED pointer mirror came off the shutter, had to glue it on. Cost: $0

in 2009 (I think) the power supply went. That was a Tuesday evening. I removed it,
Bruce picked it up to see if he could repair it. One part (VR chip I think) was cracked,
he replaced it (no charge) but that didn't help. Wednesday he called NH and they had a rebuilt in stock.
I had it 10am the next morning. Cost: $1717...

About 3 years ago I replaced the mirror over the lens. Not because I needed to
(although it had a couple of minor scratches), but because Bruce had one he just gave me.

About 2 years the pulley stabilizer or whatever it's called) came loose on the Y stepper,
I had to remove the stepper, move the pulley back in place on the stepper shaft, reinstall. Cost: $0

About a month ago I finally replaced the X axis belt. Cost: $0, the replacement came with the machine.

--I have replaced no other mirrors or the lens.
The exhaust system works so well I only have to clean them once a month-- if that. They all look like new..

--I have never oiled or lubed any guide rails. They're all still like new, glide like butter, NO freeplay, NO gritty feel.

--I have greased the table Z screws a few times.

That's it. It simply gives me good service and wants almost nothing in return. (knock on my head again)

so- if you haven't looked into Gravograph machines, I for one am suggesting...

[Darryl Wagner]

Scott,

I'm not sure I would agree with your assessment on the Job Control software. I got a quote from Trotec for the Speedy machines, and they recommended that I purchase software specifically for photo engraving called Photograv.

I am pretty sure I'm going to buy new, not used. Which manufacturer is the big question right now. I'm also going to wait for a trade show. I got quotes from a number of manufacturers and I'm pretty sure everyone is spot on when they say if you want the best price. Buy it at a trade show.

[Brian Leavitt]

I would buy used, but that's depending on the laser. If given the option, I would buy any of the 600 or 660 series Universal lasers any day over a new laser with a comparable bed size. Our oldest was purchased around fifteen years ago and other than one tube, bearings and belts, and a couple lenses, we've had to replace nothing on it. The engraving quality is also better than the Fusion 40 we purchased a few years ago. But I also spend time on cleaning and maintenance. That's one area where it can get iffy, since you don't know how well the PO took care of the laser in most cases.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott,

I'm not sure I would agree with your assessment on the Job Control software. I got a quote from Trotec for the Speedy machines, and they recommended that I purchase software specifically for photo engraving called Photograv.

I have engraved photos using that feature that were far superior to anything I ever got out of Photograv. I sold my copy of Photograv and only use the driver. Take that for what it's worth. Trotec's photo option works VERY well.

[Mike Lysov]

I bought a used ULS machine when I started doing this type of business. Completely destroyed its air filters, cutting MDF on it for a year. And I could it sell without air filtration in place for the same price I paid for it. So if you are lucky with a used laser you may not loose on it much when you decide to sell it.

If you can watch the machine you want to buy working for a few hours without any problems then it will be less risky for you to buy it.

[Tim Bateson]

My Epilog Mini 24 35w had no warranty as it was used and dropped over 4 feet upon delivery. Epilog still has provided me with above expected support. Been running rock solid for 10 years. Only change is a new mother board a few years ago - my fault for not grounding it. Gathering dust in a corner now that I have a Fusion Dual. The Mini24 still runs great when needed.. after warming up.

[Ian Stewart-Koster]

We bought a 15 year old ULS.
I'd do it again.
Running WinXP- does not bother me.
The same PC drives our 27 year old CNC router also.
Spare PCs of that calibre are almost given away free!

[Robert . Payne]

We bought our ULS 4.60 used a few years ago. We got extremely lucky as there is rarely used lasers from ULS/Epilog/Trotec up for sale and we got it at about half the price the rep quoted us along with a few thousand dollars of acrylic stock.

So far:

- Replaced tube at about 3 months (we expected this given how old the machine was)
- Replaced lens/bearings/belts at 6 months after purchase (standard wear and tear)
- Replaced motherboard at 2 years after purchase (this sucked, old one just died)

We were starting a new business so we weren't 100% sure it was going to work out so the used price tag was much more appealing (we paid cash and didn't have to finance anything) and if we knew it was going to go as great as it has we'd probably have financed a Trotec instead but we have absolutely no regrets purchasing the used ULS and would do it again!