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Thread: Solid walnut bedroom door

  1. #16
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    I think that will work, too, and if you get the splines fit tight, you won't see the small holes I mentioned in post #3 above.

    (no need for the spline-to-stile to be a "floating" joint--you can glue that spline hard to the stile, IMHO.)

    Be sure to post pics when you're done (no pics= didn't happen )

  2. #17
    You are making this more complicated than necessary. Tongue and groove the interior rails. Use the same setups to groove the stiles and top and bottom rails and stub tenon all the rails, adjusting the shoulder length for your 1/8" reveal on the panel rails. Add substantial spline tenons at the top and bottom rails (or use haunched tenons). Use your Domino machine to locate the panel rails vertically. Do a dry fit and use spacers if necessary to keep the rail shoulders in line. Forget about veneering, foam, spaceballs, splines and pins.

  3. #18
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    Hi Kevin,

    Some of what you are suggesting is not clear, so if you can clarify that would help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    Tongue and groove the interior rails.
    I think I've done that already so that shouldn't need to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    Tongue and groove the interior rails. Use the same setups to groove the stiles and top and bottom rails and stub tenon all the rails, adjusting the shoulder length for your 1/8" reveal on the panel rails.
    The inner panels are thinner than the main door rails and stiles, but I think you are just suggesting to do a tongue and groove joint right. What do you mean by 'stub-tenon' all the rails? If you can provide a little more explanation for the rest of that it would be helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    Use your Domino machine to locate the panel rails vertically.
    Are you suggesting that the inner panels be Dominoed at each end to the vertical splines with a single centered Domino?

    BTW. the foam is only to prevent any rattling after seasonal wood movement over time.


    Appreciate your comments, Wayne.
    Last edited by Wayne Watling; 05-14-2017 at 9:19 PM.

  4. #19
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    Kevin,

    I must have skipped past this post of yours, which gives further explanation. If I understand you correctly the only real difference between your suggestion and my design is the domino in place of the pin, right?

    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    You would be better served by fixing the rails in place while allowing for movement at each horizontal joint. As it is any gain in moisture content will force a significant vertical expansion in the entire panel area. Assuming flatsawn walnut and a seasonal MC change of from 6 to 10% in a non-air-conditioned space you should plan on movement of about 3/4" (http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl). Your allowance should reflect the actual MC at assembly and the expected conditions in service.

    I was involved in building a batch of doors of similar design in flatsawn white oak. We used 14mmx70 Dominos in all the rail to stile joints, which accurately located the rails with a consistent horizontal reveal. We used t&g, but splines are fine if accurately cut to length. I would recommend gluing the horizontal splines in prior to cutting the rails to length and grooving the ends. You could adapt your joinery to achieve the same result by decreasing your horizontal spline width to 2", temporarily clamping your inner rails together with the appropriate spacers, and gluing the vertical splines into the rail ends. I would do that before final assembly, and I would glue the long spline to the stiles as well. You may have some issues with squeezeout given your 1/8" reveal between the rail ends and stiles. Using t&g and spline tenons would economise on labor.

  5. #20
    By stub tenon I mean a short tenon, long enough to fill the groove in the stiles, commonly used as the primary joinery in a cabinet scale door. I am suggesting that you omit the splines connecting the rails and stiles and substitute stub tenons plus Dominos. You could omit the stile grooves and use two Dominos in each interior rail, rabbeting the ends of the interior rails to define your 1/8" reveals. Using stub tenons in a groove can help mask minor inconsistencies in rail length. The doors I mentioned in my first post had butt joints between the stiles and rails reinforced with large Dominos- the only real difference from your design was the interior rail thickness and the end reveals.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    By stub tenon I mean a short tenon, long enough to fill the groove in the stiles, commonly used as the primary joinery in a cabinet scale door. I am suggesting that you omit the splines connecting the rails and stiles and substitute stub tenons plus Dominos.
    The problem I see with this method is that you might see small gaps opening up (due to seasonal movement) between each inner panel at the ends within the 1/8" reveal. That's the idea behind the long vertical spline, it resolves that issue.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Watling View Post
    Hi Brian,

    Quarter sawn material is about 25% more expensive but I think it can be done with flat sawn and the right design. I started the design with a uniform thickness but the weight for the sliding door was going to be too heavy for the hardware I have, and besides I like the appearance of insetting the inner panels by 1/8". I thought of the word 'reveal' too but when I looked it up the definition didn't quite match so I stuck with 'gap' lol.
    In your previous post you talked about joining each plank to the stiles, I have an idea which I'll post next, stay tuned. And thanks.
    I typically buy flat sawn material, mostly because quarter sawn is difficult to acquire in the species that I work with. I just take a flat sawn piece and rip it down along the grain lines and what I have are then perfectly rift sawn pieces. I just throw away the center that remains or leave it for small projects.

    You can use whatever you prefer, but I do as I do with experience having been my teacher. I like to work everything to my favor as often as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Watling View Post
    I think this will work. A vertical spline pinned through each inner rail by a single walnut 1/4" dowel and seated into each stile. This will keep the inner rails evenly spaced and allow for expansion at the same time. All the gaps will be filled with closed cell weather stripping type material to allow for individual expansion of each inner rail.

    Wayne.

    Attachment 360215
    Attachment 360217
    The top photo works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    You are making this more complicated than necessary. Tongue and groove the interior rails. Use the same setups to groove the stiles and top and bottom rails and stub tenon all the rails, adjusting the shoulder length for your 1/8" reveal on the panel rails. Add substantial spline tenons at the top and bottom rails (or use haunched tenons). Use your Domino machine to locate the panel rails vertically. Do a dry fit and use spacers if necessary to keep the rail shoulders in line. Forget about veneering, foam, spaceballs, splines and pins.
    Listen to this man.

    I prefer haunched tenons for the bottom and top rails.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #23
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    >Listen to this man.
    >I prefer haunched tenons for the bottom and top rails.

    I'll take a look, I usually use a bunch of large dominos but these are heavy doors so I might just do that.

    Thanks for your input.

  9. #24
    Wayne,

    I see now what you mean about the small gap. This could be overcome by making the tongues and grooves thinner, say 1/4"-3/8", and the stub tenons 1/4" thicker than that. A bit more setup time, but easier and cleaner than pinning all the rails, I believe. Butt joints between the rails and stiles would be simpler yet, but requires very accurate cutting and more Dominos to keep things in plane.

    If you feel vertical splines are the best solution, I suggest clamping the rails together with spacers between and gluing the vertical spline into the end grooves, making the interior rails into a unitized panel before final assembly. This will keep the rails spaced apart consistently and avoid the bother and visual distraction of the pins. The spline need not be glued to the stiles, although it would not hurt. It can be left long to bottom out in the grooves in the top and bottom rails.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Jenness View Post
    If you feel vertical splines are the best solution, I suggest clamping the rails together with spacers between and gluing the vertical spline into the end grooves, making the interior rails into a unitized panel before final assembly. This will keep the rails spaced apart consistently and avoid the bother and visual distraction of the pins. The spline need not be glued to the stiles, although it would not hurt. It can be left long to bottom out in the grooves in the top and bottom rails.
    The reason for using the pins was to keep the inner panels from dropping over time, which they would if left floating. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point so please clarify if needed.

  11. #26
    If you glue the vertical spline to the grooves in the rail ends, it will serve the same purpose as the pins.

  12. #27
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    Sometimes I think an illustration helps. If the pins were omitted each panel has the potential to drop by 1/8". Gluing the long vertical spline into the stile has no bearing on the inner panels.

    Illustration of splines and pins.jpg

  13. #28
    I don't know how to be more clear- if you glue the vertical spline into the ends of the horizontal rails it will keep the rails from dropping. Glue serves the same purpose as the pins. If you want to see pins on one face, ignore my suggestion.

  14. #29
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    I think I know where the misunderstanding is. The inner panels are NOT glued to the two vertical splines, the reason for that is to allow for seasonal movement of each individual panel within its space, the pin allows for that to happen. If I were to glue the panels to the spline it would be the same as gluing them into the stile.


    ***Actually, instead of walnut pins, I could use a thin brass or steel pin and fill the small hole. Its only function is to prevent the panels from dropping down.
    Last edited by Wayne Watling; 05-15-2017 at 11:32 AM.

  15. #30
    Wayne

    Gluing the center of the rail grooves to the vertical spline will allow for seasonal movement with no visible fasteners. Your choice.

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