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Thread: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Admissions of an old iron junkie.

  1. #1
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    The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Admissions of an old iron junkie.

    Quite a bit has been said about how good old iron is and how bad the new stuff being made overseas is, etc. I think its time to try to set the record straight before more confusion takes more victoms. Time for some myth busting.

    1). Old iron is better than new iron. This comes from the fact that everyone says "They Dont Build em like they used to". Well, this is true and false. I know there are some old iron guys who will not like me to say this but its the truth. There were slightly more than 300 companies making woodworking machines in this country. Some were excellent. Some made unique, speciality machines. For example, Definance made machines dedicated to the wooden wheel industry. Wagon wheels and model T ford wheels, etc. But for the most part, the majority of these companies made junk. It is the job of the old iron collector to study and understand what was made and what is out there. Opinions vary all over the board. I personally have a list of about 10 to 20 companies that made really excellent machines. One of the most notable of these was Oliver. But even Oliver was not everything to every model. Oliver made a much nicer shaper than did Porter but the Porter 300 is the finest US made jointer of all time. And Lou's Newman 60 is an absolutely awsome jointer as well. But please realize that you may be making a huge mistake by buying some old hunk of iron with a non discript name. This is one arena where you need to talk to folks and fliter out the gravy from the noise.

    2). You Should Only Get Old Iron From Companies Who Are Still In Business. Many folks feel that this policy is a safty blanket. That if they need parts, parts are only a phone call away. Myth Busted. Of those companies still in business, the vast majority do not wish to support the older machines of yesterday. For example, Yates American hates to support old yates machines and are convinced that these are law suits looking for a place to happen. And when you do find a company that can provide replacement parts, they are often custom made and sold to you at a huge and I do mean HUUUGGGEEEE price. Here is the truth. The engineering drawings remain the property of these companies. Companies such as northfield or delta or oliver vis a vis eagle machinery & repair. So when Jon Q Public comes along and orders up a part, the company pulls the dusty, hand made drawing from the archives and makes a copy. The copy then goes to a local job shop who in turn makes this part under a non disclosure agreement. A job shop is a machine shop that does contract machine work for other entities. Throughout this process, everyone who touchs the part gets a cut of the action. So when you get the final bill, its for a huge amount of money for that part. Looks almost like those toilet seats made for the defense department a few years back. In fact, that is exactly what happened.

    So, often its easier to find your own machine shop connections and just have the part reworked or remanufactured locally. But here again, be careful as a wrong turn can introduce you to the billing practices of the US machine shop industry. This can leave your nose bloody! I personally do all my own machine work so that changes the equation for me. And if spare time permits, I also do a part or two for close associates and buddies.

    3). ALL PARTS CAN ONLY BE HAD THRU THE COMPANY. Once again, myth busted. This is esp. true for companies that no longer exist. But the reality is not that brutal. Woodworking machine companies have catered to a market that was always cheap and often that meant these companies were cheap. Whenever possible, parts were designed in that were over the counter parts from other industries. This was esp. true in regard to bearings. Bearings were used from several different industries and even bearings made by bearing companies who no longer exist are still available. For example, you will frequently find bearings by Norma. Norma has been out of business for years but their part numbers are cross referenced to about 25 current makers of bearings. I can get a cross reference bearing for a Norma part number made in the USA, Japan, Germany or even China. Thats right, I can replace the ball bearing of a vintage, macho made in the USA, super old iron woodworking machine with a ball bearing that was proudly imported into the US from China. Many internal parts fall into this category from bearings to pins to motor pulleys, etc.

    4). THE OLDER THE MACHINE, THE BETTER THE MACHINE. Here we go again. Myth Busted. You ever hear of a bell curve? Well if you look at quality as a function of time, you will see that its a bell curve. From about 1850 to 1900, most machine tools were just beginning to be invented. There was lots to learn about bearings, design, concepts, metalurgy, machine work, etc. By 1900, the basic designs were established. We had our table saws and our jointers and our planers and our mortisers, etc. But the bearings were often babbit and the power supply was overhead belt drive with the ponies supplied by hit and miss engines or by water wheels, etc. Speeds were low and bearings needed to be oiled everyday. They also made quite a bit of flapping noise. As the induction motor came into use, the speeds and precision of these machines improved quite a bit. Many still had babbit bearings but the bearings were better made and scraped in for higher speeds. The quality of the castings improved and the finish work on these castings also improved. Now, companies were actually finishing the whole casting and paying attention to fit and finish.

    Finally, from about 1935 to about 1968, we saw the hey day of american woodworking machine tools. This is the window where some of the finest machines made were actually made. Here you find high speed, super precision ball bearings. The fit and finish was out of this world. The electrics evolved into industry standards by Allan Bradley, Furnas and Square D. Blades were of the finest HSS with elegant gib fitting. Rotating parts were dynamic balanced. The cold war was hot and so was the woodworking machine industry. Pattern shops were making all sorts of items for both the military and the consumer alike. The TV was full of vietnam protests and kennedy wanted to walk on the moon. And Dusten Hoffman starred in The Graduate which ironically was the bell wetter to the down fall of US woodworking machinery. Plastics is the Future... remember?

    The seventies brought on the Volkswagan and the Honda cycle. It also introduced us to the concept of Value Engineering and Cost Reduction. The sales dropped off and companies like Oliver were not immune. Entire product lines were redesigned for the changing times and that meant cutting back on lots of quality items. Bearings grades were reduced. Machine work precision was relaxed. Castings were not finished as well. Stamped and welded parts were exchanged for previsiously cast ones. So machines like the Oliver 299 came out in the type 3 mode. Still good machines but not as good as those made during the late 60s. Eventually, none of this was enough. It was only a delay for the inevitable. The companies began closing doors one after another. Today, there are virtually no woodworking machines made in the US. There are some exceptions to this statement such as the northfield machines and a few odd ball machines by ritter and the William and Hussey Moulder up in New Hampshire. But for the most part, the bulk of woodworking machines comes from either german speaking europe or taiwan or china. The germans focused on super high end and the rest focused on super cheap for the consumer market. That is what their manufacturing system is geared for. It is not meant as a negative remark. I dont go to grizzly to buy one martin shaper, I go there to buy 20 grizz shapers for the same price.

    5). ANY OLD MACHINE IS AS GOOD AS ITS BROTHER. Given two machines made by the same maker in the same year on the same line with the same model number, they are both identical in the used market. Myth Busted. One may have been in a pattern shop or high school and the other was in a southern furniture factory. One is going to be pristine and the other is in need of everything (i.e. total rebuild). As Lou calls it... whoooped. When hunting down the model your after, its important to know what kind of service life this machine has had. It may be the difference of just rolling it in and hooking up the wires or spending the next 6 months rebuilding every freakin detail on the box!

    I have bought some real dogs and some cream puffs. Overall, I am personally comfortable with the spectrum from which I select stuff. But I also know that its not just possible but enivitable that I will spend time doing machine shop work on lathes and milling machines and metal shapers to bring back some of the dogs. This goes with the territory. And also bear in mind that companies like walker turner and delta and powermatic never really changed much. They were always lighter duty machines and the older machines are basicly the same ones on the new dealers floor today. So when you get one of these and rebuild it, sure, you may not be happy in comparing your work with a new model of the samo samo. In a perfect world, both are more or less identical. One has been a tremendous amount of work and the other was a credit card signature. Its hard to put a value statement on this type of comparision. That is why I stick to names like oliver, porter, onsrud, dewalt and martin in the used market. The sweat equity return for the work involved is greater.

    I hope this diatribe helps some of you figure out the truths and myths of about old iron in the woodworking realm. There is lots to love and lots to hate and even more to learn. You wind up an expert on machine design and contruction, a machinst, a woodworker, a technical historian, and a guardian of the olde ways. Kinda like a walking museum. Many hats to wear and many questions to ask of many folks.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  2. #2
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    Dev,
    I love older machines, but lack the knowledge that you have developed, even though I am old enough to have seen The Graduate when first released. And after all these years, I am still looking for Mrs Robinson. Thanks for the brief essay.
    Alan Turner
    Philadelphia Furniture Workshop

  3. #3
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    Dev,
    I'm looking at a Powermatic model 180, 18" planer. It's gold color, about 25 years old. It has seen some use, but I looked at all the gearing and power train etc. and it looks pretty solid. I'm sure you already guessed my big concern about it, which is the segmented infeed rollers. Predictably, the springs on the center ones seem to be shot. I checked OWWM. com, and got a lot of valuable info on these, and detailed instructions how to replace them, with pictures! My worry is, if I can't make the existing parts work, how much will it cost me to get either replacement parts for the existing, or a solid infeed roller to put in it's place? I think it is only the springs that are worn out, but frankly, the whole design (segmented infeed roller) looks like a weak pointin the machine to me. I would guess this is why the previous owner is selling it, although it is on consignment, so I haven't talked to him. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

  4. #4
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    Thumbs up

    Hi Dev - I don't have the money, tools, skill, or space to get involved much with older iron, but it's always intrigued me. In any event, this was quite an informative and interesting article. Thanks for taking the time to share your insights. Good job!
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the insight into "Old Iron". I, personally, don't have the wherewithall to tackle the rebuilding of these types of pieces.

    That being said, I do enjoy learning and reading about them and seeing the before and after pictures.

    Karl
    Creeker Visits. They're the best.

  6. #6

    Question What about Canadian made General?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Emch
    Quite a bit has been said about how good old iron is and how bad the new stuff being made overseas is, etc. I think its time to try to set the record straight before more confusion takes more victoms. Time for some myth busting.
    (snip)
    That is why I stick to names like oliver, porter, onsrud, dewalt and martin in the used market.
    Thanks for passing along your hard learned lessons.

    Many readers already know that 'General International' is the line made off shore for General, however the 'General' line is still made in Canada to what many report are high standards.

    What are your views/experience with Canadian made General?

  7. #7
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    good post dev

    I think sites like old woodworking machines are helping folks to gain a level of understanding about older iron that removes some of the myths that have developed over the years. One of the main attractions to older iron for me has been the real value you seem to be able to get by purchasing it at auction or from private parties. Having said that, there are limitations to that whole process. First, there is the normal problem of most of the better machines being 3 phase. For many this seems to be a big issue to get past. IMHO if you are going to jump into the 3 phase pool, and you don't have it in your shop, then you really should think about the rotary converters as opposed to the static ones. Once you make the move to the rotary converters then most machines that are on the used market no longer present the limitations that they did in the past.
    The second thing that I have found it you are going to have to spend some money even for the used machine. Once in a while you will find a porter go for a few hundred, but it is not clear that the condition is other than very poor. A case in point was when I bought my newman 60. There was also a porter 300 there. Both came from a pattern shop in ohio. The porter's tables were trashed. The newman was mint. So what do you do. I spent triple the money on the newman 60 because buying and selling machines and moving them around is a pain. You try to only have to do it once, maybe twice, if you really find the sweet machine.
    The third thing I have also found is that you have to be prepared for buying a machine that has some hidden damage and deal with it or take the loss. I think that for many this seems to be the most worrysome part of the process. What if I get it home and it has some problem that I was unaware of. Well, either you are going to be able to make it work or take the loss. I have a machinery dealer friend that had this happen to a purchase. But most of the time, if you just relax and take a deep breath you will be able to figure it out and get it fixed to satisfaction. I have been burned, but not busted. A couple of times I thought " oh man ... dog goneit... why didn't I check that" but in the end I have been able to make it work and get on with building furniture.

    lou

  8. #8
    I admit it. I am also an old tool junkie. The learning curve is pretty steep, and I have learned on the fly how to machine my own replacement parts, or trade favors with someone else if it is beyond the scope of my shop or abilities.

    I love the feeling of taking an old rusted doorstop, and restore/refurbish and put it back into service. it doubles the joy of woodworking- i get the joy of creating something using a piece of history i brought back from the dead.

  9. #9
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    Thanks Lou. I would consider your retort as an extension to my first post. Excellent points! Esp. about the three phase power. Bear in mind that many of us who have been using these machines have also built our own rotary phase converters from info gleaned off the internet. It is doable. And, truth is, a cream puff hunk of famous old iron is going to always be worth some money. Sometimes its after a restoration and sometimes its a machine that has hardly been used in 30 or 50 years.

    And its also been my experience that most folks who work on these are regular guys with an interest in the machines. If you move into this area with care and a level head, you can get it done on a shoe string budget. But rely on your online resources as much as possible.

    I forgot to mention that General still builds woodworking machines in Drummondville. I think they are excellent machines and still own a couple myself. In fact, I have been to the Drummondville plant and saw the operation. It anit NASA!!!! Its an old school machine shop operation that watches every penny. You know your entering a machine shop as soon as the door opens because you can smell the machine oil and cutting coollant. They do indeed still make nice machines!

    And lastly, for Chris. Pesonally, I like segmented infeed rollers and segmented chip breakers. You are right that it takes a fair amount of time with double jointed fingers to reassemble a segmented infeed roller. Some are better than others but they are more or less the same design. It will be cheaper for you to just get the parts and rebuild the roller you have than to try to have a custom made, single piece infeed roller made. I would be very organized about it. Keep all the parts for each segment segregated. You dont want to mix and match used parts from one segment with another. Get them completely cleaned and spiffed up so they look brand new. Then check your machine tolerances to see what is worn and what is not. Infeed rollers at the ends will tend to have no wear while segments in the middle will be whooped. This gives you an idea of what wear there is and what may be acceptable. Number all your segments in a table. Using a mic or calipers, measure strategic dimensions and write these down. Lastly, take your springs to a local supply outfit and see if they can replace them. Also give powermatic/Jet a call to find out what they have and what they want. Half of your time invested will be research and finding out what was used and where to find it and what is considered worn out. You may have to take some stuff to a machine shop so this will take some time and effort to check out a number of perspective machine shops. Lastly, follow the OWWM instructions you have recieved. One more tip. Get a bag of shop rags!!!! These are those nasty looking red rags that service station guys used to have hanging out of their pockets. Use them as a table cloth to lay out the parts on your work bench and to help in keeping everything clean and organized. And lastly, best of luck in your quest.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  10. #10
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    Dev,

    Where do the Fay & Egan & Moak jointers fit into the quality scale?

    Might have missed it in your post, but there's a big weight difference with the old machines. The PM-160 I have weighs as much as 2 Griz 20" planers. That can be good or bad depending where you want to move the machine.

    When babbet bearings are good, they seem quieter.

    As soon as I can figure out how to use the South Bend Model A I picked up, I should be able to get two machines working.

    I enjoy the "you bought this machine to fix those? Why didn't you just buy new machines?" conversations.

    Rich

  11. #11
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    dev can have the final word on the moak jointers, but I have seen them in person and they are pretty nice. I don't think they are as heavy as the newman 60 though or the porter. I have see pictures of the F & E and they look pretty nice.
    lou

  12. #12
    Great post Dev - thank you for the "lessons". Who knows, might try a hunk of old iron myself someday.

    Having said that, I'm fairly competent with electronics and can do/redo the motors - but I'm WAY short on any type of machining skills. For now I'm likely better off with the new stuff and use any old iron for the pride and sense of accomplishment when bringing one "back to life". Once again - thanks for the posts!
    Keith Foster Carrera Farms

  13. #13
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    Fay & Egan as well as Moak are on my short list. Enough Said. I still remember the day the "Old Man" died and the status of the company was in limbo due to probate issues.

    The purpose of my posts here are to lay out the truth. Sometimes its good. Sometimes its bad. Sometimes its ugly. I am not trying to sway anyone in any direction at all. Just trying to clearify some of the myths.

    I guess one of the biggest myths has not been covered. I see many who believe that they do not have the skills nor the resources to go this direction. That is truely a busted myth. Many folks have gone this direction to save money and wound up getting hooked. Woodworking machines are simple machines. Start with a small 6 or 8 inch jointer to build confidence and work up from there.
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  14. #14
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    Dev,

    I've already recounted my experience rebuilding a '66 Rockwell/Delta 6" jointer in another thread. While the thing worked and I could use it, there were a few parts that were worn. The price Delta charges for the parts made going further largely in excercise in futility (unless I wanted a $1000 6" jointer ). I'm glad I did it, but I'm also glad I replaced it with an 8" Grizzly .

    My plan is to learn to weld and start acquiring machine tools in the future. Once I have the ability to make my own parts, I may try again (although my plans for welding/machining have nothing to do with OWWM).

    Jay
    Jay St. Peter

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev Emch
    I see many who believe that they do not have the skills nor the resources to go this direction. That is truely a busted myth. Many folks have gone this direction to save money and wound up getting hooked. Woodworking machines are simple machines.
    (Now we've got the revival tent up.) Amen to that brother! My addiction, err fascination, with old machines started five years ago when I was setting up shop after a hiatus from woodworking. I went to one of those 'woodworking shows' to look at bandsaws and came away thoroughly disillusioned with the state of American manufacturers and with a steely resolve (pardon the pun) not to partake of the import hog trough. So I bought a well-used 40s era Delta 14" bandsaw with cast iron art deco base and set about rebuilding it. I had no particular experience doing this sort of thing nor the tools associated with it. The 14" bandsaw is such a simple machine and, more than any other old WW machine, parts are plentiful and cheap since so many manufacturers copied the design. I think it is the perfect machine for a "newbie" to cut their teeth on. Heck, Louis Ittura has a whole catalog built around it! With the help of the internet in general and the OWWM group in particular it was a very manageable project. No machining required, just cosmetics, new bearings, new tires, new guide components, new tension spring. The only specialized tool I purchased was a set of bearing pullers.

    Five years later, my shop is full of classic American-made machines (Oliver, Fay & Egan, Newman, Tannewitz, Yates American, Ekstrom Carlson, Newton and Crescent). Admittedly, over these five years I've spent more time finding and setting up machines than working wood. But hey, I've had a blast doing it and made numerous good friends with a similar interest. BTW, speaking of F&E shapers, I just took in a F&E 552 Lightning -- 42" sq table and big honking 5HP Louis Allis. Sweet!
    Bill Simmeth
    Delaplane VA

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