Help with Plywood... Maybe even a source for decent plywood in the SLC, UT area?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

A number of years ago I started building plywood cabinets for my workshop. I needed to get my turning tools stored, and all of the bits and pieces. In addition I needed to get the various tools that just seem to fill a workshop when you have home repairs to do etc...

So I built a bunch. I bought 10 sheets of a pine plywood from a company called Arauco from the local home depot. It was almost entirely great. Seriously out of 10 sheets one warped but when cut down most of that warping disappeared. My cabinets from then are still straight and usable.

However I made some more this last winter both for myself and for my wife on her side of the Shop... I mean garage.

However this time what I got from HD was made in China not Chile and is... well... complete junk. Every single sheet warped like mad. I cut them down the day I bought them and I they were flat then in small cabinet sides. Then when I went the second stage of processing the next day I had as much as a 4" bowing along a 30" length. I tried to use them anyway and they were useless to bend or straighten and glue. I put 2 sides together with the bend in the middle in and tried to glue, clamp and screw them together. That "almost worked". But that kind of thing isn't what I want to do again.

So I am trying to figure out what to do next? I need to build another pile of these cabinets so I need some source material that is usable.

I called the local McBeaths and BB plywood runs in range from ~$60 - ~90 depends on baltic versus Chinese etc...

The pine at the Borgs is about $34 locally.

I would love to stay with pine for price but it has to be useable.

Does anyone, local to me or remote, have and suggestions on where to buy materials or what to buy etc... Honestly at twice the price, minimum, I would have to rethink the scope of this next round of cabinets.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Doug Hepler]

Joshua,

Normally, in the trade, the quality of plywood depends on the number and composition of plies, quality of adhesive, and the presence of inner voids or surface patches. If you buy better quality plywood, that's what will constitute better quality. I think that bowing may be a function of storage and uneven moisture content on one side vs another. This is not to say that I have not seen crappy plywood from big box stores, but that was because of punky inner plies and voids.

If the sheets were flat at one time (e.g., when you brought them home) then moisture is probably your problem. Did they by any chance get rained on or left flat on your garage floor? If you lay them in the sun with the long side up, maybe the long side will dry a bit and they will flatten.

I certainly prefer BB but, as you said, you pay a premium for it. It can still warp if the moisture content of one side is greater than the other.

Doug

[Robert Engel]

Joshua, this is a problem for all of us don't feel alone ;-)

I've used the HD Chinese pine ply before but never had that much problems with warping. How were you storing the ply? I've found if you store it vertically it warps easier than BB.

I recommend getting with a commercial supplier and ask about their cabinet grade ply. The ones around me carry 3 grades (A,B,C) starting at $45 (china) all the way up to $80 (true BB from Russia of all places)

Just a suggestion I know you specified pine, but I've built kitchens and lots of other cabs out of double side melamine. There is also a product call Panolam (double sided melamine w/ ply core). Its a very economical alternative. Only buy from commercial supplier the melamine at HD is junk.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Normally, in the trade, the quality of plywood depends on the number and composition of plies, quality of adhesive, and the presence of inner voids or surface patches. If you buy better quality plywood, that's what will constitute better quality. I think that bowing may be a function of storage and uneven moisture content on one side vs another. This is not to say that I have not seen crappy plywood from big box stores, but that was because of punky inner plies and voids.

If the sheets were flat at one time (e.g., when you brought them home) then moisture is probably your problem. Did they by any chance get rained on or left flat on your garage floor? If you lay them in the sun with the long side up, maybe the long side will dry a bit and they will flatten.

No rain. They were just in my fully closed-in garage. I live in Utah very little humidity or moisture in the air here. The sheet was standing on edge. The bottom edge, 48" wide, was on the concrete. It had full support, a la a video shown by the Wood Whisperer years ago. But at the store it was in a half a, think they are called a bunk, 'pile' of sheets. I did take one down a few as it looked flat when I bought it.

The first thing I did when I got it home was cut it into 3 pieces. Two sheets about 30" x 48" inches and one cut off. The next day the plan was to then rip it down into sides and set the proper length on it.

It had warped enough that it was dangerous feeling to cut.

Perhaps I just have the wrong perspective... And $80/sheet isn't expensive it is just what it costs to get usable material and the pine plywood just isn't usable regardless of price...

Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I've used the HD Chinese pine ply before but never had that much problems with warping. How were you storing the ply? I've found if you store it vertically it warps easier than BB.

Interesting. I was storing it vertically.

But it did have support along it's length. I wonder...

I will lay what remains out flat when I got home and see if it straightens at all.

Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Sorry no pictures with me of the warped wood.

I have one shot of how I used my table saw to try and clamp it down and straighten it.

Joshua

[Rick Malakoff]

Hi Joshua, have you gone to a real lumber yard, you know like the one who supplies home builders? Look for ACX which is A side a
C side and X exterior glue, APA rated (American Plywood Association).
Hope this info is of some help.
Rick

[Doug Hepler]

Joshua

However you can, try/test the unequal moisture theory. I'm not being stubborn here, its just that I can't think of another cause of your problem. Maybe the sheets were "waiting" to warp because of moisture in the stack? The veneers were surely cut wet. Maybe the factory did not dry them well enough before shipping. Is there any sign of mold? You may well have better results if you find another vendor or another type of plywood. But I do not think it would be because of better grade. It would mean that they were stored better.

You are right not to cut them if they won't lay flat.

Anyway, my two cents. Maybe an expert will chime in.

Doug

[Bill Dufour]

I would return it to HD even if it is cut. I have some pressure treated 2x6 That I am drying to build a trellis. i know I will be returning one or more for warping.
If enough people return bad wood then maybe the store will stop trying to sell bad wood.
Bill D.

[John Gustafson]

Aracou is still listed by HD on their web site but not all stores carry it. Here in SE VA, of probably 30 stores in a 50 mile radius, I have found one that carries it in stock and it's about 30 miles from my house. But then so are a couple of other cabinet suppliers,( that will sell retail) and there I know I can find some decent stuff as well as a selection of hardwoods. That's where I go because HD's reputation, in genera, l is so sketchy on material quality I'm not making a 60 mile round trip in the hopes that the pallet they have on display today is decent. I have used some Sandiply from HD on shop cabinets, with good results, but that was several years ago when it came from South America. have not looked at it currently.

[Steve Wilde]

Joshua,
I'm in SLC too and never buy the garbage from hd unless its for something cheap. I either get mine from Macbeth, High Mountain Forest Products, or if I'm in a pinch and need BB you can get half sheets at woodcraft, not that it's my first choice but as I said if i'm in a pinch I will.
Steve

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I either get mine from Macbeth, High Mountain Forest Products, or if I'm in a pinch and need BB you can get half sheets at woodcraft, not that it's my first choice but as I said if i'm in a pinch I will.

I was not aware of High Mountain Forest products. I have put off my project because I couldn't find the materials I needed. And now that I watch the ol' thermometer head north of 90 I think I may have waited too long. *sigh*

I will check out what they have and their prices.

Thanks!
Joshua

[Joshua Dinerstein]

However you can, try/test the unequal moisture theory. I'm not being stubborn here, its just that I can't think of another cause of your problem.

Doug,

I have a moisture meter with 2 little spike on it. I will try checking the water level in them. It has been a few weeks now so likely it will have stabilized. But I can head back to the store and measure it on the sides of the plywood at least. I doubt they would like me punching a bunch of holes in a bunch of sheets.

Joshua

[Doug Hepler]

Joshua

I'm glad that you followed up. I recommended that you try drying the long (convex) side by putting that side of the sheet in the sunlight for a while. If my theory is correct, it will straighten out. I don't know whether a moisture meter will be accurate enough.

Doug

[Mark Blatter]

Check out Intermountain Wood Products (1900 South and Main) in SLC or National Wood Products. I buy from IWP mostly and pay a pretty reasonable price for BB. The last time I paid about $18 for a 5 x 5 x 1/2 sheet. Seems like the 3/4 was in the low $30s. Both companies carry a range of products. I stopped shopping at MacBeths due to how pricey they are on all products.