Japanese plane purchasing advice

[Kevin Neff]

Long time lurking, first time posting.

Looking for japanese-plane-buying advice. I've looked at the other first-plane purchasing advice on the web. Had trouble finding stuff that had working links and planes I could actually buy. So, as a service to the internet and me, would you all please chime in with specific Tsunesaburo planes for Japanese tool n00bs.

I need planes that are suitable for preparing rough lumber (jack, scrub), jointing, smoothing, and a low-angle plane block-type for trimming end grain.

I don't want "starter" planes to try/play/fool with. I don't want super-fancy one-of-a-kind forged-in-the-moon-light-on-the-summer-solstice type planes. Nothing romantic. I just want real planes that I can use for woodworking.

I have experience sharpening plane irons and setting up wedge-type planes with a hammer.

I plan to mainly work with soft woods---pines, doug fir, cedars, and poplar.

I'm looking for tool performance, not sharpening ease.

The budget is 300-500 $ for all the planes together, not each!

Thanks for looking! Would be glad to hear any and all advice.

[Brian Holcombe]

Frankly, might be easier to start with one good plane and work from there as budget and time allow. Use a #5 jack plane in the mean time, along with #7 jointer then use the remainder to buy a good Japanese finisher and ko-ganna.

I'd be looking at un-used second hand planes or lightly used second hand planes to get something very good and remain in your budget. My favorite semi-budget maker is Takeo Nakano.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Kevin and welcome to the Creek.

The Japanese planes, at least the strange names, are a perplexing subject to me. When it comes to wooden bodied planes my experience has only recently begun with molding planes.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

I agree with Brian that Nakano san makes good quality, reasonably priced planes. For $500 you might be able to get hold of a couple of his planes. You can find them on ebay, with some risk, or I can can get them for you with a warranty.

I own literally hundreds of Japanese planes, but prefer to use a metal-bodied plane for rough dimensioning work. This is because rough boards are frequently dirty and often have embedded grit that scratches the plane's sole. A steel sole endures this abuse better than a wooden one. Scrubbing the board's surface with a stiff steel brush helps to remove dirt and grit, but is not always enough. Also, the harder steel of Japanese plane blades can chip badly if they hit grit. Western plane blades are a lot softer, and dull quicker, but dent instead of chipping, so their blades are easier and quicker to restore when damaged.

Low angle block planes are not typically available in Japan. The low angle weakens a wooden block. A western-style block plane is a better, more durable, choice, IMO.

Stan

[Kevin Neff]

Frankly, might be easier to start with one good plane and work from there as budget and time allow. Use a #5 jack plane in the mean time, along with #7 jointer then use the remainder to buy a good Japanese finisher and ko-ganna.

I'd be looking at un-used second hand planes or lightly used second hand planes to get something very good and remain in your budget. My favorite semi-budget maker is Takeo Nakano.

Thanks for taking the time to write back!

I looked up Takeo Nakano and found a 600 $ plane. This is the kind of advice I've already found on the internet---expensive planes, specific and obscure maker names, and, in a word, ebay. Could starting carpenters in Japan actually buy one of these? I have a professional type job in the richest country in the history of the world and this 1 plane costs multiple days income after taxes. I can't imagine that a professional carpenter could afford anything of the sort. Isn't there anything more affordable out there that is serviceable and reasonable quality?

I'll take your advice, though, and look at second-hand stuff. Honestly, it's a lot of risk because I don't know what to look for. However, it may be the only way to do this on a budget.

Was really hoping to get some advice on Tsunesaburo planes, specifically because I can buy new (toolsfromjapan) and there seem to be many choices over a wide range of prices.

Again, thanks for taking the time.

[Kevin Neff]

I agree with Brian that Nakano san makes good quality, reasonably priced planes. For $500 you might be able to get hold of a couple of his planes. You can find them on ebay, with some risk, or I can can get them for you with a warranty.

I own literally hundreds of Japanese planes, but prefer to use a metal-bodied plane for rough dimensioning work. This is because rough boards are frequently dirty and often have embedded grit that scratches the plane's sole. A steel sole endures this abuse better than a wooden one. Scrubbing the board's surface with a stiff steel brush helps to remove dirt and grit, but is not always enough. Also, the harder steel of Japanese plane blades can chip badly if they hit grit. Western plane blades are a lot softer, and dull quicker, but dent instead of chipping, so their blades are easier and quicker to restore when damaged.

Duly noted.

I want to try the Japanese woodworking methods, all-in, if possible. I suppose I could use a push plane on a Japanese planing bench...

As I read your response, I started to wonder if the tradition of handling rough lumber is something that just isn't done in Japan in modern times. Could it be an anachronism that we've fallen into here in the USA? For me, it's practical---a few hand planes are cheaper, quieter, and easier to transport than proper machine tools. But maybe it's not done elsewhere. I wonder if it's part of the woodworking tradition that is simply DEAD in other countries.

Low angle block planes are not typically available in Japan. The low angle weakens a wooden block. A western-style block plane is a better, more durable, choice, IMO.

In Western tools, there's a few planes every woodworker will need. A jack, jointer, smoothing plane, and a block plane. Is there such a progression in Japanese tools? I'm really at a loss... up to this point, I've assumed that all woodworkers basically need to perform the same operations. I thought there would be a 1-to-1 mapping of Western tools. Is this so? Or is a Japanese jointing plane just have a little longer dai and a Japanese jack plane looks like other planes, but with a wider mouth, etc?

[David Wong]

Kevin,

Check out the items from the eBay seller "kanamonoya71". He will often offer good new planes in your price range. I have purchased a 70mm Nakano from him for between $200-300. Other retailers to check out are SuzukiTools.com, Twopines.net, and Hidatool.com.

You might want to look at Yamamoto planes at SuzukiTools.com. I have a Yamamoto similar to the "Katsusaburo", that I have used for both jointing and smoothing duties. It has been a very decent performer.

Buying on eBay has some risk, but I have had nothing but good experiences with kanamonoya71. He also has a website - japan tool-iida.com.

[john zulu]

Japanese planes are quite different than Western planes. Namely the wooden body and blade itself.

A few years ago I was looking high and low for each alternatives for the Japanese planes. Like the scrub,jack and jointer. What I discovered is that most planes are very much on the smoother planes for kanna. There are other dimensions like the block plane. On soft wood, you don't need to hold the blade during planing but very hard wood like jarrah you need to hold the blade itself or it will slide back up the plane.

I will target a smoother plane.

[Stanley Covington]

In Western tools, there's a few planes every woodworker will need. A jack, jointer, smoothing plane, and a block plane. Is there such a progression in Japanese tools? I'm really at a loss... up to this point, I've assumed that all woodworkers basically need to perform the same operations. I thought there would be a 1-to-1 mapping of Western tools. Is this so? Or is a Japanese jointing plane just have a little longer dai and a Japanese jack plane looks like other planes, but with a wider mouth, etc?

In every advanced country I have seen (and I get around the world), electric-powered equipment is predominant for rough dimensioning. It is simply quicker and more cost-effective. Even those communities of Amish in Ohio who are not permitted electrical tools use hydraulic-powered saws and planers driven by diesel engines or waterwheels in their very extensive woodworking enterprises.

The Japanese use electrical power tools for dimensioning lumber where space, zoning, and noise restrictions permit.

In the Japanese hand woodworking tradition, there are 3 planes used to dimension and surface lumber.

The Arashiko, meaning "roughing" plane, usually has a 60-65mm wide blade, and a shorter body. This plane can be used for many purposes, but most scrub planes are older tools with a wide mouth.

The Arashiko can also be used as a finish planes for smaller boards, depending on the mouth and blade condition.[

There is not typically a Jointer plane equivalent used for dimensioning.

The finish plane is called a "Shiage kanna" and has typically 70mm ("sunpachi" 寸八) to 80mm （"nisun" 二寸）blade. There are wider ones of course all the way up to 250mm and more. 70mm is by far the most common. There are couple of ways to set these planes up, depending on the width and type of material being finished, so it is common for a craftsman to have at least two finish planes. A minimum of 3 is normal for guys that do fine work.

And then there is the "Nagadai kanna" meaning "long block plane." This is used for finishing longer boards and for shooting edges. One side is usually thicker than the other so it will wear longer when used on its side to shoot. The nagadai, being longer, tends to get out of wack the easiest.

There are endless combinations and variations of these three planes that craftsmen use for dimensioning and finishing.

Most woodworkers, even if they use powertools, will have an arashiko or two, and a finish plane close at hand since they will do things machines cannot.

I hope this answers you particular questions

[Stanley Covington]

Thanks for taking the time to write back!

I looked up Takeo Nakano and found a 600 $ plane. This is the kind of advice I've already found on the internet---expensive planes, specific and obscure maker names, and, in a word, ebay. Could starting carpenters in Japan actually buy one of these? I have a professional type job in the richest country in the history of the world and this 1 plane costs multiple days income after taxes. I can't imagine that a professional carpenter could afford anything of the sort. Isn't there anything more affordable out there that is serviceable and reasonable quality?

I'll take your advice, though, and look at second-hand stuff. Honestly, it's a lot of risk because I don't know what to look for. However, it may be the only way to do this on a budget.

Was really hoping to get some advice on Tsunesaburo planes, specifically because I can buy new (toolsfromjapan) and there seem to be many choices over a wide range of prices.

Professional-grade tools are not cheap. Hand-made top-quality tools are expensive. Nakano's products are hand-made top-quality, but have a good balance of price/performance. He is known for this by those who have bought and used lots of Japanese planes.

Yes, Japanese craftsmen do spend that kind of money on planes... routinely. If you wonder why someone would pay $600 for a plane, then a $600 plane would not be suitable for you right now.

Ebay is frequently more expensive, and certainly less trustworthy than other options. Many of the Japanese tools sold on Ebay are seconds or rejects and/or returns that cannot be sold in Japan. Good new tools are seldom cheap. Good used tools are seldom found. Ebay is gambling, and used tools bought on Ebay are closer to roulette than craps. Caveat frikin emptor.

You asked about Tsunesaburo specifically, so here is my response: Tsunesaburo is not a small forge doing high-quality work in small quantities. It is a factory that mass-produces consumer-grade (think Home Depot) tools. Stamp, grind, heat, quench, in big lots using automated machinery. Their customer base is not professional woodworkers doing high-quality work.

Just like you won't find a high-quality Western style plane like Lie-Nielson or Veritas at Home Depot, you won't find a high-quality Tsunesaburo plane. Strictly consumer grade.

Let me make one thing clear: Tsunesaburo tools have their place. And for those with little experience with Japanese planes, they are entirely useful and a fine place to start. But don't have high expectations. Their lower-priced stuff has reasonable value, at least at the prices sold in Japan. But they have a series of planes of mediocre quality that they sell has high-quality ones at a relatively high price. The price/performance balance of these planes is not what it should be, IMO. Definitely caveat emptor, baby.

Don't sniff at Nakano just because you don't know his work. By posting to this forum, you are asking for opinions. While it is certainly OK to ignore someone's opinion, anyone's opinion, for any reason, or no reason, it is less than gracious to dismiss them in a subsequent posting. Some opinions are better informed than others. Nothing can substitute for the hard cash and long years Brian has invested in Japanese planes, and that makes his opinion on the subject worthwhile.

Stan

[Matt Lau]

Kevin,

I'll chime in, since I was in the same position as you last year.
On my end, I didn't pay myself for about a year and a half.
However, I really wanted/needed a stress outlet and found Japanese hand planes to be great.

At first, I tried to be cheap.
I bought a Tsunesaborou from Stu's New Year's sale (great price, okay plane).
I honestly didn't know why Stan likes Nakeo Takano's planes so much and was pretty (ignorantly) angry when he'd pointed me onto a plane from Iida's ebay store (kanamonoya71) instead of some others.

After I got the plane, I was humbled.

While the Tsunesaburo plane cuts well and leaves a decent finish--it's soulless, and the blades feel very machine made. These tools work, but "lack soul" for lack of a better explanation. Sorta hard to describe. I immediately sold my Tsunesaburo plane to a fellow luthier friend (who apparently works for google on office air polution, go figure).

The Takeo Nakano plane (his cheapest, simplest model) has many details that are the opposite. The dai feels honest and the blade is heftier, more solid, less bling, no attempts to appear authentic...because it is authentic.


Kevin, as for your original question:
1. What projects will you be working on?
2. What planes do you have?
3. What are your expectations?

Based on my experience--
- For rough work, nasty wood, cheap, good performance-- Mujingfang planes (with the funny crossbar).
These can double as scraping planes if you flip them.
- For jointing-- get a good metal jointing plane--I got a LV custom jointer, and love it. The LN jointer is great too. The LV LA jack is good for shorter jointing (like lutherie, almost everything plane related can be done with just that one plane and a block plane for building guitars).
- For superlative, silky fine finishes on wood and a meditative experience-- a good japanese plane is very hard to beat. A great Japanese plane really is designed for the user's pleasure.

I've been not so impressed with some of the cheap, made in india metal body planes. I haven't gotten my Infill A5 to work to my satisfaction yet (it's super heavy). I don't have a No 4 plane, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

OP, I don't know if you are getting the advice you want, but I don't think you will get better advice here than what you are getting from Stanley and Brian. Stanley's location is not a typo. Brian has made a lot of very nice things with the tools you are interested in. Off the top of my head, they are the two people on this board that I would email if I had a question about Japanese tools.

As far as I know neither has anything to gain by recommending one maker over another.

Best of luck finding something that meets your needs.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for taking the time to write back!

I looked up Takeo Nakano and found a 600 $ plane. This is the kind of advice I've already found on the internet---expensive planes, specific and obscure maker names, and, in a word, ebay. Could starting carpenters in Japan actually buy one of these? I have a professional type job in the richest country in the history of the world and this 1 plane costs multiple days income after taxes. I can't imagine that a professional carpenter could afford anything of the sort. Isn't there anything more affordable out there that is serviceable and reasonable quality?

I'll take your advice, though, and look at second-hand stuff. Honestly, it's a lot of risk because I don't know what to look for. However, it may be the only way to do this on a budget.

Was really hoping to get some advice on Tsunesaburo planes, specifically because I can buy new (toolsfromjapan) and there seem to be many choices over a wide range of prices.

Again, thanks for taking the time.

You'll need to dig a little deeper. That plane is made with tamahagane steel and it is priced higher than what I'm suggesting. You may also want to hold back from making a quick leap to conclusions.

Look for Nakano made from white 1. Most, practically every smith, offer a variety of choices hugely variable in price. That said The tool choices of seemingly regular carpenters may surprise you. I talk to timber framers pretty regularly and many of them have enviable collections of top notch tools.

You're getting good advice from these folks, I would take Stan up on his offer. You would be hard pressed to find yourself in more capable hands, worth completely forgetting about eBay and what exists on there.

Thank you Stan and Nick, appreciate the kind words!

[Ted Reischl]

:::shaking head:::: "planes with no soul".....sheesh.

I was in Japan in the late 90's on business. I wandered into a hardware store on a saturday morning. After some arm waving, etc the nice lady led me to a cabinet in that had about 4 more doors under the front one. There were the planes! I bought three for ridiculously low, low prices. A chamfer plane was 2500 yen, about $25 US at the the time. A larger smoother and a smaller pocket size plane. One was about $35 and the other was $27.

Neither one has any "soul" but all of them cut very nicely. I particularly like the chamfer plane. What a great tool.

Just wondering, if a plane with "soul" is destroyed in a fire, where does the "soul" go to? Another plane or Nirvana?

[Kevin Neff]

Professional-grade tools are not cheap. Hand-made top-quality tools are expensive. Nakano's products are hand-made top-quality, but have a good balance of price/performance. He is known for this by those who have bought and used lots of Japanese planes.

Yes, Japanese craftsmen do spend that kind of money on planes... routinely. If you wonder why someone would pay $600 for a plane, then a $600 plane would not be suitable for you right now.

I was looking for evidence of my claim that it was too expensive... One example is the Canadian-pattern broad axe, which cost 2 weeks wages according to my research. A felling axe, in the same catalog, was half the cost. This could be an exception but I doubt it. Even accounting for the fact that an axe require lots of metal and that lumber jacks probably used a smaller variety of tools (and used them much harder), I'm coming to the conclusion that expensive tools are the norm.

Makes me think of the trade-off between cheap bad tools for everyone compared to expensive quality tools that only a professional tradesman could afford. If faced with the real cost of good tools, I wonder how many people could make a hobby of woodworking.

Another thought---in astronomy, the local club often refers to hobby-killer telescopes. They're high-magnification scopes with bad eyepieces and shoddy tripods. Even if you know what you're doing, these telescopes are very hard to use. Maybe cheap bad tools are like that in woodworking---a real danger to the craft.

I didn't intend to sniff at or disrespect any plane makers or sass those of you who took the time to write. Out of billions of people, I really appreciate the effort of answering my specific questions. Thanks for all the responses. Bear with me as I adjust to this new reality.

Part of my cost anxiety is that I'm realizing that I'll need a lot more than a few planes. I spent a few hours today sitting on the floor, chopping 3/4 x 4" mortises with the wrong shape chisel and trying to pare with too-short Western style bench chisels. My 500-$ budget will barely buy a few planes and I could probably spend as much on a few mortising and bench chisels and a slick. So much money. And so far, I haven't made anything worth selling!