Japanese plane purchasing advice

[Stanley Covington]

I was looking for evidence of my claim that it was too expensive... One example is the Canadian-pattern broad axe, which cost 2 weeks wages according to my research. A felling axe, in the same catalog, was half the cost. This could be an exception but I doubt it. Even accounting for the fact that an axe require lots of metal and that lumber jacks probably used a smaller variety of tools (and used them much harder), I'm coming to the conclusion that expensive tools are the norm.

Makes me think of the trade-off between cheap bad tools for everyone compared to expensive quality tools that only a professional tradesman could afford. If faced with the real cost of good tools, I wonder how many people could make a hobby of woodworking.

Another thought---in astronomy, the local club often refers to hobby-killer telescopes. They're high-magnification scopes with bad eyepieces and shoddy tripods. Even if you know what you're doing, these telescopes are very hard to use. Maybe cheap bad tools are like that in woodworking---a real danger to the craft.

I didn't intend to sniff at or disrespect any plane makers or sass those of you who took the time to write. Out of billions of people, I really appreciate the effort of answering my specific questions. Thanks for all the responses. Bear with me as I adjust to this new reality.

Part of my cost anxiety is that I'm realizing that I'll need a lot more than a few planes. I spent a few hours today sitting on the floor, chopping 3/4 x 4" mortises with the wrong shape chisel and trying to pare with too-short Western style bench chisels. My 500-$ budget will barely buy a few planes and I could probably spend as much on a few mortising and bench chisels and a slick. So much money. And so far, I haven't made anything worth selling!

You don't have to buy a $600 plane to do good work and enjoy woodworking. It takes more effort and caution to buy useful tools at the lower price ranges, though. Used tools are a good way to go. Flea markets, pawn shops, and yard sales can yield good tools at low prices. I have a few tools picked out of buckets in pawnshops remaining from my days as a starving engineering student that I still use, and perform very well indeed. But if you go this route, Japanese tools will be few and far between.

[Matt Lau]

You don't have to buy a $600 plane to do good work and enjoy woodworking. It takes more effort and caution to buy useful tools at the lower price ranges, though. Used tools are a good way to go. Flea markets, pawn shops, and yard sales can yield good tools at low prices. I have a few tools picked out of buckets in pawnshops remaining from my days as a starving engineering student that I still use, and perform very well indeed. But if you go this route, Japanese tools will be few and far between.

I don't disagree.
Most of my Japanese planing is done with a pair of planes that I'd picked up in Sacramento of Craigslist for $50. I don't know the maker, but they sharpen easily and hold an edge well.

However, I've also been burned trying to chase many "bargains."
I appreciate guidance from people that know more than me.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Part of my cost anxiety is that I'm realizing that I'll need a lot more than a few planes. I spent a few hours today sitting on the floor, chopping 3/4 x 4" mortises with the wrong shape chisel and trying to pare with too-short Western style bench chisels. My 500-$ budget will barely buy a few planes and I could probably spend as much on a few mortising and bench chisels and a slick. So much money. And so far, I haven't made anything worth selling!

Nobody knows what you are trying to do, so I don't know if anyone is in a position to give you advice about what to buy, and what you can get along without.

Mortise chisels do not have to cost a mint. One or two are enough, and you can get very high quality antiques from Jim Bode for about $30-$40. If you buy the new Ray Iles mortise chisels that will use a large chunk of your budget. A regular bench chisel will work fine until you can afford them.

A high quality paring chisel will cost a lot, but you can do a heck of a lot of paring with quality bench chisels. The Ashley Iles bench chisels are about $30-$35 each, brand new, and are very good.

If you live in the U.S., good quality used tools are available, but they are going to be western makers. If you want to do everything Japanese, you will have less of a used tool supply, and everything will cost more. Just like I would presume you do not find a Bailey No. 4 under every rock in Japan.

Good deals can be had, but you have to be patient. As the old saying goes: "You can have it good, fast, or cheap. Pick two."

[Stanley Covington]

Nobody knows what you are trying to do, so I don't know if anyone is in a position to give you advice about what to buy, and what you can get along without.

Mortise chisels do not have to cost a mint. One or two are enough, and you can get very high quality antiques from Jim Bode for about $30-$40. If you buy the new Ray Iles mortise chisels that will use a large chunk of your budget. A regular bench chisel will work fine until you can afford them.

A high quality paring chisel will cost a lot, but you can do a heck of a lot of paring with quality bench chisels. The Ashley Iles bench chisels are about $30-$35 each, brand new, and are very good.

If you live in the U.S., good quality used tools are available, but they are going to be western makers. If you want to do everything Japanese, you will have less of a used tool supply, and everything will cost more. Just like I would presume you do not find a Bailey No. 4 under every rock in Japan.

Good deals can be had, but you have to be patient. As the old saying goes: "You can have it good, fast, or cheap. Pick two."

Well said.

Stan

[William Fretwell]

Kevin, you did not mention your country of affluence. Yes it's wonderful to afford the best but starting out with your budget that simply won't happen.
Most people on here have some other career to fund their love of working with wood. Very few pay for their tools by working with them, that can take a lifetime. Persuading your customers to pay top prices for your craft is never easy and takes a long time.
I have watched many Japanese craftsmen videos and to be productive they happily resort to machines for the grunt work and then switch to hand tools for the final fitting. They have to be productive, they have to be affordable, if they are not someone else will be.
Four guys started a furniture business near my space, their claim to fame was using reclaimed wood from barns and old buildings. They would dismantle the barn etc to get the wood. The sheer fact that their raw material cost them so much in time and had a considerable waste factor escaped their thought process. I pointed this out to them and they needed to charge double to survive. They did not survive more than 4 months as people expected to pay less for recycled wood.
If you want to do this to make money look at your market and understand how that might be possible.
One benefit of working with wood is you can do a lot with very little, it will take longer, be less productive and may not be first rate. It will however still make you happy while you slowly improve your tools and skill. Most of us have limited budgets so you are not alone!

[Brian Holcombe]

There are collectors buying Mokume this and file worked that and some crazy things, but for the most part it's been my experience that people who are buying otherwise plain looking but nicely detailed and high quality tools are typically professionals. To some, a tool is a tool and that's the end of it, but to others they obsess over their tools and their hobby seems to be buying tools to use professionally.

This has no bearing on the OP's budget, but thought I would throw in my 2 cents since it is often assumed that professionals only budget themselves a cheap set of tools to work with an only collectors buy the "good" tools.

[William Fretwell]

My experience in Canada is the majority of high quality tools are probably bought by affluent hobbyists. Professionals certainly buy some of the same high quality tools but regular losses at job sites get expensive and curtail their budgets. One large tool rental place near me supplying local industry has so much of their inventory stolen on site and the client gets to replace it the tools never wear out. The big companies would rent tools for the tradesmen and then have to replace them, it became so bad now the tradesmen have to buy their own tools.
Not being a collector each tool has to be justified for a task. Main tools need to be the best you can afford. The #5 Plane and low angle block should be good. The smoother very good. Various chisel qualities are useful for different tasks. I would spend more on very good saws as the choices are so limited, the low end is dismal.
As most tool buyers are men and women outlive them there should be a lot of great, lightly used tools being sold off by their wives. If their wives were told anything it was that the tool cost $100 less than it did.
I think most hobbyists see buying top tools as a shortcut to skill; it helps, but Japanese planes are not so easy to tune. Top tools really perform in skilled hands.

[Jim Koepke]

I think most hobbyists see buying top tools as a shortcut to skill

Sadly this is all too true. The other side of this is a lot of my skill was built from buying inexpensive second hand tools and learning how to tune them up to their top performance. Of course my century old Stanley/Bailey planes are not as nice as their modern siblings. Though when all is said and done there is no way of seeing any difference in the finished work beyond the skill of the person who made it.

One thing learned in this is some of the lesser made tools will not perform to the standards of their contemporaries or well made modern tools.

Always remember the words of John Ruskin:

There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.

One can usually find old metal hand planes for very little money. One can buy a much nicer modern hand plane to do the same job for as much more as they are willing to spend.

It would take a lot of cabinets to pay for a Karl Holtey smoother at ~$3750 - $7400.

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...ltey_tools.htm

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtool...tey_planes.htm

Surely the same contrast exists in the quality of low cost and premium Japanese planes. Some of the more economically priced Japanese planes may be a good value as a user. Some may be a waste of time and money.

jtk

[Michael Todrin]

Kevin,

i am am no expert on Kanna and am only about six months into working with them. I find that planing on the pull stroke offers a great deal of control and is very pleasant. After some extensive research I ended up buying a $40 dollar plane on the auction site. This decision was largely based on Brian's blog about tuning the kanna, which is excellent and informative. It helped me realize that I wanted to practice setting up and tuning a plane (and potentially messing it up and having to cut a new dai) before spending a lot of money on one. After several hours with chisels, flattening plate, card scrapers and straight edges it is running very well and producing a lovely finish.

Just my two cent another way of going at the learning curve of a new tool..

[Brian Holcombe]

Glad to hear that you found my posts helpful!

[Kevin Neff]

Thanks for the advice.

After looking around, I found 48 and 75 mm planes by Takeo Nakano. I got them from Two Pines Trading Co. in Greensboro, NC. Paid about 400 for both of them. They're good tools and I am enjoying using them. It's been fun to put into practice some of what I've been reading for several years.

Decided to upgrade from the 220/1200 combination stone. So that's not cheap. And now I decided I'll have to get some proper chisels. This is getting expensive and sometimes I think I should just stop. But curiosity and the experience so-far has lured me in.

Some additional advice I've gleaned is that there are 3 categories of planes. Under 100 is questionable quality. Between 100 and 500 is generally significant improvement ~ per dollar spent. And over 500 is generally for rare items, famous smiths, etc.

In my own experience, it seems that other items have these levels. With booze, for example, the 12-$ liter of whiskey in a plastic bottle on the bottom shelf is clearly not advisable. And a neophyte should not be advised to spend 500 $ on a famous and rare bottle of scotch. But there's a lot in the middle. I like to find the breaking point in the curve---on one side, there is improvement for additional cost; on the other, it simply a matter of luxury or status. For bourbon, I think the breaking point is about 40 $ for a 750 mL.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes and No, in my experience. There are many work horse type planes, though highly refined, that are well over $500. So it's not so easy to simply say that over a certain price threshold you are paying for romantic notions or rarity. Instead I like to look at it on an individual basis based on quality and performance.

I tend to like things like cold forging skill, hardness and durability, quality of finish, quality of the dai that it is supplied with, quality of steel. Other things that show the expertise of the maker, like forge black left on the ura and neat detail to the outside perimeter of the blade, or having been finished with a sen (scraper) on the ura. It's also nice if they've worked the blade in a way which allows easy setup and allows ito-ura. I don't like it when they arrive with a thick land around the ura.

I tend not to care about things like exceptionally rare steels, carved patterns or images, mokume or unusual dai wood.

[Spencer Nelson]

This discussion about tool quality has been really great. It brings to mind this bit from Toshio Odate's book, Japanese Woodworking Tools, describing his first purchase of a really top-quality tool during his apprenticeship as a shoji maker:

"All daily needs were to be taken care of by the master during the apprenticeship. There was little reason to have money, but by my third year, I had nevertheless saved some given to me by my master and others for doing errands. On the first and fifteenth day of the month, we would take a half day off, but only after the shop (which was often the customer's yard) and all the tools were cleaned. This was usually about two o'clock, and you can imagine how precious those hours were to me. One afternoon, I took the train to a store that was well known for its fine tools. There I purchased a plane made by a famous blacksmith. Being young and inexperienced, I did not know the reputation of the smith or the fine quality of his tools. I knew only that the plane was expensive.

On the train, I was so happy with my purchase that I unwrapped the plane and held and looked at it all the way home. I knew I would have to keep the plane a secret, for people would laugh at the beginner who bought a tool he did not yet know how to use properly. I couldn't even keep the plane in my toolbox for fear someone would see it. So I enjoyed the plane every evening in my room, and kept it by my bedside.

One day it was raining, and everyone was in the shop and fixing tools. I don't remember why - it wasn't a day off - but the plane was in my toolbox. Though I was pretending to be working, I had difficulty keeping my mind on my job, so I was continually looking at my plane. Suddenly, my master was standing beside me; he asked about the plane, and I had to tell him that I'd bought it. Immediately he took it from me and showed it to the other shokunin in the shop - they all thought it was a wonderful tool. After they talked together about it for a long time, the plane was given back to my master. Holding the plane in his hand, my master came to me and told me simply that it was too good for me. As I expected, I never saw the plane again.

Tools are made to be used, and great tools are made to be used by great craftsmen. That plane was not for me, and I should not have owned it simply to keep it hidden away. It was a painful and expensive lesson to learn, but I know now that I should have had greater respect for the tool and its creator. Such respect did not mean allowing the tool to be idle.

While new to Japanese woodworking, I think there is no shame in buying modest "merely good" tools like Tsunesaburo planes and Gyokucho saws. I actually think it's entirely appropriate. Just be willing to accept the idea that, if you continue down the Japanese tradition, you will probably buy a much-nicer upgrade in a few years which will replace the apprentice-level plane you buy today. Then, you'll actually be in a position to appreciate it.