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Thread: Long Ranger III popping GFI on shutdown of Dust Collector?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    Long Ranger III popping GFI on shutdown of Dust Collector?

    I have a new Long Ranger III on my Jet 1.5hp dust collector (110V). The remote starts the dust collector up and it runs fine. However the GFI kicks out the circuit about half the time when I shut it down with the remote. The GFI pops when the motor spins down slow enough for the centrifugal switch for the capacitor in the motor drops back in. So the sequence is:


    1. Off on the remote and power is cut to the motor
    2. motor starts coasting down
    3. when motor rpm drops low enough, the capacitor start centrifugal drops back in (as typical, you can hear it when that occurs)
    4. the GFI pops simultaneously with motor centrifugal switch dropping back in


    The GFI kicks out at the same time the centrifugal switch drops back in. So the starting capacitor dropping back into the circuit must be giving some feedback to the box that throws the GFI.

    BTW, I called the supplier (PSI) and talked to their service department and their suggestion was, "Do not run it on that GFI protected circuit because your GFI is just too sensitive." Yeap, no real analysis or technical info on their part or help.

    So has anyone experienced this same behaviour with a Long Ranger III remote??
    Last edited by Alan Heffernan; 05-19-2017 at 12:37 PM. Reason: clarity

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Columbus, Ohio, USA
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    2,164
    SWAG time.....

    Might the switch arc to ground when it switches over.... or something similar?

    This is more common than you might think. I kept tripping one with a water cooler when it would cycle. The usual advice is :


    1. Make sure things are wired correctly and tightly (for example, no loose neutral connections).
    2. Test with a different GFI (and it is GFI, not an arc fault, right).
    3. If the GFI acts the same with a different / newer / better one, then the problem is probably the motor.


    OK, so what trips a GFI? I think that 5mA leakage current will do it. I have seen numerous complaints when something kicks in (turns on) and it triggers.

    Does code demand that you have a GFI there?

    I added breakers in my older house, then removed it from the circuit with the water cooler.

  3. #3
    Alan,

    I had that problem with an earlier model of the Long Ranger and my 1.5 HP Jet DC. I also called Jet Tech support and got essentially the same response. Your analysis is correct. The long ranger remote is a single-pole switch, so induced current from the spinning motor or current from the starting circuit can feed back to the GFI. In my case a GFI is code for my garage shop. IMHO we should use a GFI in a shop anyway.

    An electrician who saw my posting about it told me that I needed a two-pole switch -- a contactor -- between the remote switch and my dust collector. I installed one. So now the remote switch (Long Ranger) operates the contactor and the contactor operates the DC.

    Doug

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
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    Doug,
    Thanks for the feedback and sharing your experience.

    I changed the GFI out today which yielded no change. The new GFI behaved the same and popped.

    I ran an Oneida system I also have on the new Long Ranger III and the same GFI circuit that the Jet is kicking out. Interestingly, the Oneida operated fine and did not pop the GFI.

    So compared to the the Oneida system's motor, there is something unique about the Jet motor and its capacitor switching and integration that causes the problem.

    So the answer, as you point out, is to put a contactor in place of the manual switch on the Jet. What a PITA!
    Thanks again,
    Alan

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Central MA
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    984
    Why not just ditch the GFI? No real need for it for a dust collector. Alternatively, getting a GFI breaker for the circuit and removing the GFI outlet may well solve the problem by getting the GFI farther away from the motor

  6. #6
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    John,
    That would be an option and I almost did that the other day out of frustration.

    However I have a fairly extensive shop and equipment kit with the majority of my circuits serving multiple devices and services. I have all the 120V circuits protected with GFCIs. The only individual services I have are 220V for bigger machines like a planer, metal lathe, and milling machine. In addition I have a fixed Oneida system with ducts and the Jet is a portable dust collector that I sometimes move around and it could land on one of the multiple circuits in the shop.

    After appropriate reflection on this problem, I am actually glad to find out that the Jet is unsafe in this arrangement. This is all an indicator that it is putting current back into my electrical system when using the Long Ranger as the sole switch. While the duration of this is short, ~20 second coast down, I can imagine it is not the most healthy of circumstances for the Long Ranger remote or the safety of the shop. I have numerous VFDs and other stuff I do not wish to see strange feedback to through a circuit that is inadequately protected.

    When I took the GFCI out yesterday to replace it with a new one, it appeared to have had some arcing and that is not a good sign at all. That might also explain how loud it was when it would pop.

    So I will fix the Jet motor as the problem child by putting a contactor on it. Amazon sells them for less than 10 bucks and hopefully it will fit where the Jet on/off switch is now. Then power from the remote energizes the contactor and also provides power to the motor and when the remote interrupts it, the motor is totally separated electrically from the circuit. This will take the Jet off line during coast down when it is acting like some strange sort of generator/alternator and then also dropping the starting capacitor back in when its havoc is unleashed even more dramatically.

    By the way, the Jet has a power plug on it that has an LED indicator built in showing it is getting voltage. This LED flickers during coast down while using the remote as the switch. This is an indicator that strange things are going on with the Jet's motor becoming a generator on coast down.

    Bottomline, this was a good discovery and a good reminder to me about electrical safety in the shop.
    Last edited by Alan Heffernan; 05-23-2017 at 10:18 AM.

  7. #7
    Alan,

    Delighted to be able to "pay it forward" from the help that I got on this forum from Artie Fleming. Like you, I had figured it out, but needed confirmation. I do not know how much current is being fed back by the motor spinning down, but you are right -- it can't be a good thing. Maybe if Artie sees this he would comment.

    Doug

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
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    Pepperell Ma.
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    A couple of thoughts, one-did you ever use the dust collector without the Long Ranger? If so did the gfi still trip? If not, I'm guessing the dust collector can be rewired for 220 volts and has a two pole switch. 2- for everyone using the same dust collector without it being on a gfi protected circuit, the stray voltage is feeding back into the system. Since it is only milliamperes that trip the gfi, I can't imagine there's enough voltage/amperage to damage anything, but if you have some hi-tech electronics, well anything is possible. The interesting part is if the manufacturers of these remote controlled devices would just make a two pole version (one would think it would be less than double the price) they would have more sales and this problem would be solved. GFI protection is mandated by the NEC, but I do not have any in my (soon to be completed) work shop. Anywhere near water, or outside, I wouldn't be without it. Arc fault protection, well that's another story. I believe when Doug was having his same issues, another member here posted that when the wind blew through his stand up fan on his porch, causing the blades to spin, and it was turned off, it would trip his gfi. Now I'm an electrician, not an engineer, and on the Doug's thread there were a lot of replies that it's not possible for this type of motor to generate/produce any electricity or trip the gfi. Well something is tripping it. You put this on a two pole contactor/relay I'm pretty sure your gfi tripping will be done with. I believe it's been over 8 months since Doug started using the isolating relays, and I don't think he's had any more nuisance trips. I'd offer to make a setup for you, but my job has changed and I no longer have access to the used parts anymore . This is a very solvable situation, just takes money away from more important things like saw blades LOL. Artie

  9. #9
    I would think a line reactor between the switch and the motor would quell the arc. Maybe even a simple capacitor. Advantage of a line reactor is that it does not need any control wiring. For single phase one coil on one line would probably be enough. You could make your own or buy a used one on ebay. Just make sure to enclose it so the high voltage is not open to touching.
    Bil lD.

  10. #10
    Hey, Artie

    Brief history -- I did not have a problem before I installed my Long Ranger. After I installed it the problem occurred at random intervals, not every time. Not one GFI trip since I installed the contactor. Problem solved

    Doug

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Location
    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Fleming View Post
    A couple of thoughts, one-did you ever use the dust collector without the Long Ranger? If so did the gfi still trip? If not, I'm guessing the dust collector can be rewired for 220 volts and has a two pole switch. 2- for everyone using the same dust collector without it being on a gfi protected circuit, the stray voltage is feeding back into the system. Since it is only milliamperes that trip the gfi, I can't imagine there's enough voltage/amperage to damage anything, but if you have some hi-tech electronics, well anything is possible. The interesting part is if the manufacturers of these remote controlled devices would just make a two pole version (one would think it would be less than double the price) they would have more sales and this problem would be solved. GFI protection is mandated by the NEC, but I do not have any in my (soon to be completed) work shop. Anywhere near water, or outside, I wouldn't be without it. Arc fault protection, well that's another story. I believe when Doug was having his same issues, another member here posted that when the wind blew through his stand up fan on his porch, causing the blades to spin, and it was turned off, it would trip his gfi. Now I'm an electrician, not an engineer, and on the Doug's thread there were a lot of replies that it's not possible for this type of motor to generate/produce any electricity or trip the gfi. Well something is tripping it. You put this on a two pole contactor/relay I'm pretty sure your gfi tripping will be done with. I believe it's been over 8 months since Doug started using the isolating relays, and I don't think he's had any more nuisance trips. I'd offer to make a setup for you, but my job has changed and I no longer have access to the used parts anymore . This is a very solvable situation, just takes money away from more important things like saw blades LOL. Artie
    Thanks for replying Artie.

    Yes I did run the collector on the same circuit without the remote and I had no problems. It all started with the use of the remote.

    I am confident that the contactor will solve the issue. BTW, I am convinced that the motor is generating a current. The LED on the plug is flickering on shutdown and all power has been disconnected.

    Thanks again.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
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    Contactor solved the problem

    Contactor installed and all works fine. I bought a contactor from Amazon and put it in a 4x4x4 box from Home Depot. The collector now works with the remote or without. Without the remote it should not be left plugged in since the coil in the contactor is energized and could get hot over time. Labeled the box with that in mind. Sometimes my shop has others using the equipment.

    I am putting some details here to document the solution I used to perhaps help others in the future.

    Contactor from Amazon:

    contactor amazon.JPG

    Contactor installed in box:

    contactor without cover.JPG

    Contactor box w/cover and warning label:

    contactor with cover warning.JPG

    Thanks again for the help.

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