Hand tool finds, 5/20/2017

[Jim Koepke]

Don't razor strops usually have one side of linen and the other side leather?

Stropping on cloth has a long history me thinks.

jtk

[Mike Baker 2]

Yes, that is true for a lot of them, but many people only use leather, and they might use anything in a pinch. Even folded newspaper draped over a towel hanger, in a pinch.
I prefer cloth and leather, because I think the cloth adds a kind of "prep" to the edge, and before the leather, if there are any burrs or damage to the edge, the cloth will catch it before I scratch up my leather.
After, it helps ensure the edge is dry before putting the razor away.
But yes, cloth or leather, the strop has a very long history in use.

[Joe Williams]

Awesome, I saw you paid 20 for the Disston. I have configured a 7 for rip and for crosscut and I love those saws. I'd have paid that for it easily awesome find

[Joe Williams]

Thanks.
I figure if I were to buy a good saw new that was anywhere near the quality, I'd pay 5 or 10 times as much, so it was an easy choice. I'm just beginning hand tool woodworking, and I'm buying them to use, so it seemed like a good buy to me.

I am starting out in a lot of ways, especially with woodworking by hand tool. Those #7's are fantastic, I have some saws that have even been kinked in places that I have fixed and they are great users. Since I learned to cut and file I've upped my game and bought a centennial and a few others like the 23 and 8's but I could live with a few of the 7's for the rest of my life and never need anything else from what I can tell.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Joe.
I actually need to learn to recut reeth. I have two crosscut saws; the Disston and a Nicholson. I believe the Nicholson is one that can be resharpened, and would ideally like to turn it into a rip and keep the Disston as is.
What I will most likely do, however, is just keep looking for another good quality rip. And a decent tenon saw.

[Stew Denton]

Mike,

It is relatively easy to convert a crosscut to a rip saw, IF YOU LEAVE THE TOOTH COUNT THE SAME. There are articles on the net on sharpening saws, to convert a crosscut to a rip all you have to do is resharpen the crosscut with a rip saw tooth pattern. If the saw was commercially sharpened the last time it was sharpened before you obtained it, the set will likely be more than you like after you resharpen to to a rip saw, but after you need to sharpen it one or two more times the set should be back down where you want a rip saw to be.

You should not have any difficulty finding something like a Disston D8 8 point, because there are a zillion of them out there, because that is a size virtually every carpenter carried, almost always a 26", but they were also popular with home owners, handymen, and maintenance men. You should not have to pay a lot for such a saw. My 7 point rip cuts quickly enough that I would be fine with it if I were only going to have one rip saw, that is if it is sharp.

Even so, IF I were to have only have one rip saw, it would be a 6 point. I think it is a good compromise between the quick sawing of a 4 to 5 point rip for rough work, and the relatively clean edge of the lumber ripped by a 7 point finish rip saw. If you look enough you should be able to find either an 6 point or a 7 point cross cut out there to convert, and if you have a lot of problem, I would take a good 8 point that came along and convert it. It will saw a bit slower, but if sharp I don't believe you will find it much of a handicap. Further, to quickly find the exact tooth pattern you are looking for, the best way is to buy something else and convert it, that way you are likely to find what you originally wanted, and likely quite cheaply and very quickly after you finish converting the 8 point.

I could live with a panel saw length cross cut saw, but for ripping the extra length of a 26" or even a 28" is very nice. Doing a long rip is work, and the extra length of the 26" is very nice, compared to the shorter panel saw length saws. In my view, a 26" saw is not a disadvantage, although some prefer a shorter saw, so "you won't be hitting the floor" when using a saw bench. I think such is not a problem, years ago (read that 45+years ago), when first using one I did hit the floor a few times, but you rapidly learn not to do that.

So learning to use the longer saw is not a problem, and I like 26" saws for everything I use a standard saw for, and even a 28" is nice for ripping, and I am NOT a big guy. Thus guys just a bit taller than average, and big guys should have no difficulty with the longer saw at all. Part of my preference for the longer saws as such, is such is what I have almost always used because that is the only length saws I had for years....I guess my carpentry history is telling on me here.

Now.....that said.....I have to admit, in the interest of honesty and integrity, that I have neither an 8 point nor a 6 point rip. However, I do have about 40 years experience with my 7 point and my 4&1/2 point rip saws, and about 35 years with my much finer gents saw. Because of that experience I would not hesitate to choose the 6 point for my only rip saw if short of funds and if I had no rip saw. Further I dearly love my 7 point rip, and as such believe that an 8 point rip would be a bit slower, perhaps a bit better finish rip saw, and think it would be preferred if I was using it on fairly thin stock. In fact, I have wanted to convert one of my many 8 point crosscuts to an 8 point rip, and intend to do so one of these times.

Regards.,

Stew

[Mike Baker 2]

Stew, thanks. I will look into some tutorials, and investigate what size saw file I would need. I have a 7" or 8" X Slim tri file, which might do the trick. The saw I'm thinking of converting is a 7 ppi Nicholson USA. I think it is an older saw, with resharpenable teeth.

[Stew Denton]

Mike,

I think your Nicholson is a prefect choice for conversion. As mentioned above, I dearly love my 7 point rip, and on lots of occasions when it was the only rip saw had with me at the time, I used it for every ripping chore with virtually no regrets. If you are any thing like me, I think you will be quite happy with a 7 point size.

Stew

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Stew.
Right now I have two crosscuts. The only rip saw I have is a very small Stanley FatMax. It works well, but I'd like to get away from the plastic handles and impulse hardened teeth, and I could also mark off another tool from the list of tools I need to work wood.
I have a bench to build, just as soon as my mortise and tenon practice tells me I'm good enough to make those joints tight. I'll need a good cross cut to cut the top to size. Two's better than one on a big job like that, so once I get that done, I think I'll look at converting the Nicholson.
Thanks again.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, congrats on the tool finds. The 7 is one of my favorites as well. About a year and a half ago I decided to make a major effort at learning to sharpen my own saws. A lot of good info out there on the net...the best I found was from Pete at Vintage Saws and Isaac at Blackburn tools as well as a video or two.

Just from my experience, I'd recommed you picking up a few really low cost garage sale saws...ones you can find for $3 or less for practice. Condition doesn't really matter, other than I looked for minimum rust on the teeth. Picked up a few crosscut and rip (well if truth be told probably about a dozen or so). A few of my past posts will show the "disaster" learning curve...even to the point of filing the teeth away and starting over. For me, the sharpening part is easy...it's the initial shaping that takes the practice/experience...especially for crosscut.

Once I felt fairly confident, I took after my better vintage saws. I'm glad I didn't start my learning process on these better saws...might not be much left of them

Just for reference, my initial investment was about $325...a saw vise, files, dykem, magnifying glasses, good bench light, a vintage saw set, and a dozen junk saws. You can save about half that amount by making your own vise. I'm not counting the excellent saws I purchased from Pete and another SMC member, Mike Allen, which I used as benchmarks for a well turned saw.

Good luck!

[Mike Baker 2]

Phil, thanks for the advice.
I have looked at quite a few saws literally covered in rust. If I can get them cheap, that sounds like a great idea.
One of the things I am mulling over is, when converting a saw from cross cut to rip, how much metal would you have to take off, and what does that do to the gullet(not sure that's the right term; the valley at the bottom of the tooth), and to the angle of the tooth front to back(rake?). You are removing metal, and it can't be put back. Best to start on ones that aren't in too good a shape to start, I think.
Incidentally, I used the Disston yesterday, just to try it out. The thing cuts like butter.

[Phil Mueller]

There are folks here with much more experience that will chime in, but I think the issue going from crosscut to rip is reducing the rake angle. Crosscut will normally be 12-15 degrees, where rip is typically 0-8 degrees. To reduce the rake you may need to joint the teeth aggressively. That's what I think will dictate the amount of metal that needs to be removed. Not sure...I've only gone from rip to crosscut.

The gullets will be reformed as part of the process of shaping the teeth.

Dont get intimidated. Make a vise, buy some files and just get after a junker. It will all start to make sense.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Mike,

A while back there was a section on steps taken in sharpening, the link to this Sawmill Creek post is as:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...arpening-input

There are a lot of other ones one Sawmillcreek as well, if you do a search, these will likely cover virtually any problem you might run into, the search box is at the top right hand corner of the page. The first thing to do is joint the saw (I never can remember the name "joint," but remembering the name isn't as important to me as doing that step.) If you go with the right rake angle, and with a fleam of about zero the gullets will take care of themselves as you sharpen.

One thought on cost. Phil obviously has a drastically better set up than I do. However, you can get started sharpening for drastically less money than Phil has listed if you:

1. Make your own saw vise as Phil suggested (I did, but mine is three shades of "it isn't fancy.") I made mine from some 1X2s and 1X4s I had laying around. I use "C" clamps and quick grip clamps to hold the lumber that holds the blade in place and clamps the vise to a plank. If you have to buy the lumber new, it can be had for $10 or so. The clamps will set you back more if you don't already have them. I have plenty of triangular files that I have had for years, and I just picked one of them that was the right size. Since several are Nicholson files that might be 30 to 40 years old, they are good files. You don't need to go out and buy a bunch of files, just get the one you need if you don't already have one.

2. You can buy a file holder at Ace Hardware for maybe $5 or so, the ones I like are orange plastic with 4 black inserts, believe me they are NOT fancy file holders but they work just fine. Some of the sites that have stuff on sharpening saws also show how you can make most of the other stuff you need, and you don't need much to get started.

3. You buy your saw set used on that auction site, buying one that is good, but can use a lot of sprucing up. (On tools with bolts and screws I always ask the seller if all of the screws turn, or are some rusted in and can't be turned.)

My point on this is that I spent maybe $5 to get started, but I had scraps of 1X4s and 1X2s, had the files, and had the clamps, so I wasn't out anything. (I have a couple of actual saw vices, but they are up in the attic in who knows what box, so I just built a vise.) You will need a saw set too, but I have a couple of garage sale junkers that I have had for 40 years, and started out using them, and they worked well enough. (I have since bought a good one on that auction site, and delivered it was maybe $25 or so, delivered.)

The thing I am saying is that you can get started sharpening your rip saw, converting a crosscut to a rip, for maybe $50 or less, depending what you already have. In my case I didn't buy anything to get started, but I work outside on planks and saw horses with natural light. (That works this time of year, in the winter it can be a bit brutal.)

I have a cheap magnifying head band set up, but need a better one, the eyesight is not what it used to be.

That said, you may eventually want to go with a set up like Phil has, but you don't need to go a high dollar route to get started.

I was incredibly pleased with the first saw sharpening I ever did. Was it perfect, no, but it was very good, the saw cut like blue blazes, and it was: 1. as good of a job as what I have paid a some professional sharpeners to do, 2. not as good as some have done on my saws, and 3. better than some I have paid to sharpen my saws. At any rate, I am no longer having to hunt for a sharpening service, and in my case save a one hour drive each way to get a saw sharpened, not to mention a sharpening fee.

One final comment, the homemade low dollar approach will work about as well as the high priced spread. A skillful sawyer with my set up will do a better job than someone with a great set up, if the guy with the great set up either doesn't know what he is doing, or who gets in a hurry.

Stew

[Mike Baker 2]

Stew, thanks for that. All of it. I appreciate the encouragement.

I believe I have the proper file, after looking around online at what I should need ,and rummaging around here. All of my files are old, passed down from family, and the file is in good shape.
As for a saw vise, Paul Sellers has a video on Youtube about building one, so I think I can follow that.
About the magnification. I'm with you there. I need that. Fortunately, as I do a lot of small parts fiddling in my other hobbies, I'm set with a cheap headset. Could not do a lot of stuff without that.
I'm also fixing to head out to the local flea market and poke around, so I'll look for more saw files, too.
Thanks again.
BTW, I'm loving this hobby. Never once thought I would be able to sharpen a saw, and I'm really stoked to learn.

[Mike Baker 2]

Stew, thanks for the link. It is a treasure trove of information. Fantastic!