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Thread: Dovetail Guide comparison

  1. #1
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    Dovetail Guide comparison

    Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

    I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

    Many Kind Regards . . . Allen
    No, the sky is not falling - just chunks of it are.

  2. #2
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    This is my favorite dovetail guide. It is a Kell.

  3. #3
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    That is really more of a marker (a fine one at that). The guides I am talking about are actually used with a saw and hold the saw in place with a rare earth magnet while you saw the dovetails. It keeps the saw at the correct angle and square as you saw.
    No, the sky is not falling - just chunks of it are.

  4. #4
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    David's demo at handworks was pretty slick.
    The people doing demonstrations have had a lot of practice. It will look slick from all the practice.

    Like many others my dovetail cutting was improved by lots of practice. Get a couple 2' pieces of inexpensive 1X4 material and make a set of dovetails to put them together. Try to determine what went wrong if they are not perfect. If they are perfect, try and figure what went right. Then cut them off as close to the corner as you can, square up the ends and do it again.

    I turned a few 8' 1X4s in to little pieces of firewood doing this, but my dovetails got a whole lot better.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post


    This is my favorite dovetail guide. It is a Kell.
    My experience with dovetail markers is that a marker that goes "in" works better than a marker that goes "out", as the one you show in the picture.

    The reason is as follows: When you're marking a dovetail at the end of the board, a lot of an "out" marker is hanging off the end of the board.

    Here's some pictures, using a couple of Lee Valley Dovetail markers. The "outie" is the old one and the "innie" is the one they sell now. Assume you're going to start your first dovetail 1/4 inch from the end of the board.

    Dovetail-marker01.jpg

    When you use an "innie", there's no problem marking the dovetail.
    Dovetail-marker02.jpg

    Dovetail-marker03.jpg

    When you use an "outie" you're balancing the marker on that 1/4 inch at the end.
    Dovetail-marker04.jpg

    But you have plenty of support when doing the other side of the dovetail.
    Dovetail-marker05.jpg

    I think the balancing problem is the reason LV changed their design. The Kell has a "bar" that helps support the dovetail when marking on the end of the board, but there would be more support if it was an "innie" instead of an "outie"

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  6. #6
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    I have both guides. I use the Kell more.

  7. #7
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    I don't ride the saw on the guide. I learned to saw on a line. I find it to be more accurate. It's a matter of "different strokes for different folks".

  8. #8
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    barron-dovetail-guide-d.jpgDavid Barron Guide
    Veritas.jpgVeritas Guide

    The Veritas guide has a built in clamp. It appears to be more versatile.

    I don't own either.
    Last edited by Tony Joyce; 05-23-2017 at 10:28 PM.
    "Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily.”
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  9. #9
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    I built a version of the David Barron guide, based on this article at the woodworkers institute. I used it with a japanese saw to cut dovetails in 1/4 inch thick boards for a small tool tray. The guide is very easy to use, but still requires some attention. It is possible to rock the saw sideways if you are rushing or not paying attention. You can see in the picture Tony Joyce posted of the guide, that there is plastic covering the magnet. The plastic is proud of the rest of the aluminum body, so you can rock the saw slightly. Just make sure to watch the cut and saw straight to avoid this.

    I made my version to cut dovetails at a 4 to 1 ratio, specifically for thin stock.

  10. #10
    Allen;

    To somewhat answer your question. I've tested the LV guide but not the DB one. While I found the guide for the most part works as advertised it is fiddly and a little bit of a pain to use. I can't speak for the DB one because I have not tried it but I expect the results would be the same. That said, the local Woodcraft has someone teaching dovetails using the DB guide and system and they are producing good DT from the get go. My take is it depends on your goal, finish a project with better than your skill level dovetails or finish a project with good dovetails but at your skill level and at the same time improve that skill, You pays your money and accept the results.

    Hope that helps,

    ken

    PS. There ain't nothing wrong with a little "pooky" to close the gaps or using shims and saw kerfs to close the gaps....The joint is still strong and functional and the only person that will notice is you and maybe another woodworker unless you can't keep your mouth shut .

  11. #11
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    Thanks for all the great information

    I may still get one of the guides as they look especially useful for small dovetails in thinner material. While, I will stick to practicing the larger dovtails without the guide.

    Many Kind Regards . . . Allen
    No, the sky is not falling - just chunks of it are.

  12. #12
    When making dovetail joints it is helpful to mark out all the cut lines (I use a fine pencil) even if you use a sawing guide....its a matter of visualizing the finished product. The kel guide above is attractive, but really only marks the face of the board, while the sawing actually begins with an end-grain cut. For this reason, I would only use a marker that marked the face and the end grain at the same time. I have made several of these from scrap wood, in different pitches. I do cut my dovetails free-hand, except for the half pins on either edge of the tail board, where I use a shop-made sawing guide for just the cross-cut at the base line. I do this because that cut is the single most critical cut to be made in the entire joint: if those crosscuts are off-line the joint will never fit tightly. With that sawing guide I use the Kugihiki flush-cut pull saw, the smoothest cutting saw I have ever seen. It also will not cut the sawing guide because it is a no-set saw. I should also add that I mark the baseline with Tite-Mark so that I can have my saw or chisel fall right into that marked line, which keeps that all-important baseline continuity.

    I have no experience with any dovetail sawing guide, although I did watch David Barron use his to great effect. Honestly, he would no doubt make flawless dovetails without it, but the idea is to make you successful at it and him richer by $65. Nothing wrong with that bargain. I'm not sure I would like the magnetic aspect of his guides. I suspect they would work just as well without the magnets and promote better free-hand sawing. In any case you still have to saw in the right place (to the line) to end up with a successful dovetail joint.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 05-24-2017 at 4:20 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by allen long View Post
    Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

    I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

    Many Kind Regards . . . Allen
    FWIW, I spent a lot of time over the last ~6 months trying to get proficient at making dovetails. Using the standard marking guide and a western saw I've gotten to the point where they're "serviceable," but far from "great."

    I saw a video using the Japanese saw and the magnetic guide, and it seemed like a better way. Ordered both, and pretty quickly I could make more or less perfect dovetails. To me, the reasons seem to be threefold. First, I found it pretty difficult to push a western saw through while maintaining a perfect 90 degree angle in the cut. Wonder just a little and the gaps open up. Still serviceable with practice, but nowhere near perfect. The second thing is that the Japanese saw has a far thinner kerf, so there is less of the "...then move the pin board over just a TINY bit and mark the tails..." or "...cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line..." You can more or less just mark with a knife and cut. Third, the pull stroke of the Japanese saw seems to make it far easier to follow a knife line to get it started perfectly.

    Note that given the size of David Barron's guide, some of the Japanese saws at your Woodcraft won't be deep enough. The Gyokucho 372 that you can buy on Amazon for ~$40 is perfect.

  14. #14
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    MH--good post.
    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  15. #15
    I have used both the Lee Valley and the DB guide. Just my opinion, but I say the DB guide is superb and the LV version is one to avoid.

    David Barron has some excellent videos and I have found all his advice to be very sound. Examples include the use of a dovetail alignment board for keeping edges aligned and preventing a work piece from becoming cocked when marking. The method he endorses for chopping out the waste for the half pins has worked well for me. I also notice that he has a video on hand cutting dovetails without using his guide which I feel demonstrates his commitment to the craft, not just selling his tools.
    Don't listen to people who bash dovetail guides as training wheels. I see a hierarchy where hand cutting in the traditional way is at the one end, the dovetail guide might be in the middle and a router jig on the other end. You can choose among and between these alternatives depending on the project at hand, your personal preferences and the time you have available. All these methods have their place and their merits. It doesn't have to be either/or.

    Also, while the DB guide simplifies the process, it doesn't make it automatic or foolproof. You'll find some practice is in order. Marking and chiseling skills are just as necessary as they are using the traditional method. The only thing the guide is truly aiding is the sawing which is not the only skill in dovetailing.

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