Dovetail Guide comparison

[Noah Magnuson]

... I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). ...

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

Just wanted to congratulate you on a fine saw choice. That bayonet has been my go-to since I got one. It is truly an ideal balance, shape and size for so many things. I feel like a cyborg with a saw for a hand when I am using it. Not to mention Mark does a superb tune-job on the teeth.

[Joe Williams]

FWIW, I spent a lot of time over the last ~6 months trying to get proficient at making dovetails. Using the standard marking guide and a western saw I've gotten to the point where they're "serviceable," but far from "great."

I saw a video using the Japanese saw and the magnetic guide, and it seemed like a better way. Ordered both, and pretty quickly I could make more or less perfect dovetails. To me, the reasons seem to be threefold. First, I found it pretty difficult to push a western saw through while maintaining a perfect 90 degree angle in the cut. Wonder just a little and the gaps open up. Still serviceable with practice, but nowhere near perfect. The second thing is that the Japanese saw has a far thinner kerf, so there is less of the "...then move the pin board over just a TINY bit and mark the tails..." or "...cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line..." You can more or less just mark with a knife and cut. Third, the pull stroke of the Japanese saw seems to make it far easier to follow a knife line to get it started perfectly.

Note that given the size of David Barron's guide, some of the Japanese saws at your Woodcraft won't be deep enough. The Gyokucho 372 that you can buy on Amazon for ~$40 is perfect.

I am no dovetail expert but it sounds to me like you are wanting to saw dovetails and have them be perfect without having to pare them or anything? Is that a thing? I can do serviceable to decent but I have to pare them with chisels, even the tails.

[Niels J. Larsen]

Has anyone had a chance to compare David Barron's magnetic dovetail guide to Lee Valley's version. They look quite similar. Yeah, yeah, I know I should practice dovetails strictly by hand, but David's demo at handworks was pretty slick. I would normally go with his guide, but I spent way too much on other things like the bad axe bayonet saw (and yes I do see the irony there). I have a little credit at Lee Valley that would allow me to get their guide sooner than later.

I would appreciate any insight or hands on knowledge/experience.

Many Kind Regards . . . Allen

I have not tried the LV version, so cannot say either good or bad about it.
However I have bought the David Barron's guide only after stumbling on one of his excellent how-to videos on YouTube, which I can highly recommend.

I have to build a cabinet that sits below the sink in a bathroom I'm renovating (is it called a vanity across the pond?) and I decided to try using dovetails for the drawers.

Now, the purist in me originally focused on dovetails cut without any "cheating" in the form of guides or similar, but after thinking a bit about all the guides I use for my routers, cabinet saw etc. I didn't really see the point in avoiding them for handcut dovetails.

The David Barron guide works *exactly* as good as David shows in the videos and when coupled with a standard Japanese Dozuki saw you get extremely straight cuts.

I have nothing but positive to say about the guide and you don't need any clamps or similar to hold it securely while you cut.

[lowell holmes]

Check out Paul Sellers hand made dovetail guide. You will find his article online. I have a wooden one I made in one of his classes many years ago.

[Ted Phillips]

I used the LV guide a lot when I first started cutting dovetails. However, as my skills got better and better, I found that the guide was reinforcing some really bad habits and it was holding me back. So I ditched the guide, bought a couple of "Saddle Tail" marking guides from Sterling Tool Works and started to learn how to cut freehand. It was a liberating experience - and it turned me into a much better sawyer.

I *highly recommend* Sterling's Saddle Tails. They are the best dovetail markers and saddle squares on the whole darned planet. And Chris is a pleasure to deal with.

[andy bessette]

What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

[Mike Henderson]

What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

I use 1:7 which is about 8 degrees if I recall correctly. There's no "correct answer". Within limits, it's all what you like. If you go too small, you lose the advantage of it being a dovetail and it's more like finger joints. If you go too much, you wind up with "short grain" and the ears of your tails can break off when you go to assemble the joint.

Mike

[While you can spend a lot of money and buy commercial dovetail saddles (for marking your dovetails), they're pretty easy to make. I've made them in wood and brass. Pictures on request.]

[Jim Koepke]

cut into the waste area leaving just a touch of the line

This was one of my problems when first starting to learn the making of dovetails.

Whether the tails are cut first and used to mark the pins or the pins are cut first and used to mark the tails, the line is completely outside of the waste area. My recollection is it being Frank Klausz always said "learn to saw to the line." As in not through the line. When that finally sunk in my dovetail work got much better.

I have made a few wooden markers but prefer these:

100_4985.jpg

One is a 1:8 ratio for hardwoods the other is a 1:6 ratio for softwoods.

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

What dovetail angles are you guys using for various hardwoods?

Speaking in terms of aesthetics, I feel the thickness of your stock is a factor in choosing your particular angle for a project. In my experience if the stock is 1/2" or less, angles less than 1:6 can look too subtle and resemble box joints. For example if you used 1:8 on stock that was 3/8" thick, I question whether it would look like a dovetail at all. However 1:7 and 1:8 can look very good in thicker stock where the angle runs long enough to get away from the box joint look. Of course, the look at any angle is also highly influenced by how thin you lay out your pins. I like narrower pins personally, and 1:6 is my go-to, 1:5 if the stock is thinner, and 1:7 if thicker. I think it's all personal preference in our age of high quality glue.

[Jim Koepke]

I think it's all personal preference in our age of high quality glue.

Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

[Hasin Haroon]

Allen,

I defer to all the experts who posted before me about the pros and cons of using dovetail guides, but for your question specifically, I think there's something you need to consider - you mentioned you purchased a bad axe bayonet, and the LV dovetail guide is meant to be used with a japanese style saw (the blade will bottom out on the guide due to the presence of the back and the small plate on your bayonet). So if you want to get a dovetail guide that works with your saw, you'll have to go with the DB or a homemade one.

[Edwin Santos]

Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

That may be so, but those folks are still making a cut at some angle/ratio, they just don't know (or maybe don't care) what that angle is. There are those that have a very good eye and can work without marking with very good consistency. Then there are others that feel the work is more authentic if there is variation in angles, and spacing too. Others are in pursuit of precision, order and consistency. I guess there's no right or wrong and it's all a matter of preference.

To your point, Frank Klausz would scream at a student who tried to mark or measure dovetails.

[lowell holmes]

Some folks do not even measure or mark. Just cut the pins or tails and mark the other side from the first. They would likely look at you funny if you asked what ratio or angle was used.

jtk

I've seen Paul Sellers do it.

[John Kananis]

I've seen Paul Sellers do it.

Frank Klausz has always preached this. If I remember correctly, Paul Sellers has a video on using another 'backer' board as a guide. Cost is a piece of scrap wood, that being said, do 'em by hand and hone your skill.

[allen long]

Hasin,

You are correct Sir! I plan o get good Japanese saw and use the guide for thin materials. I plan on honing my "without a guide" skills using the Bad Axe or my LN dovetail saw.

As far as dovetail markers go, I plan on making one made out of copper based on Ralph Boumenot's design (I can't seem to find the post to show you though - Ralph, Over to you!)