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Thread: New 1200 grit CBN wheel today

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    E TN, near Knoxville
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    12,298

    New 1200 grit CBN wheel today

    I have several CBN wheels on grinders and a 600 grit CBN on a Tormek. I use the Tormek for all my spindle gouges but even the 600 grit didn't give me the edge I got with the stone water wheel.

    Today I got a 1200 grit CBN for the Tormek and gave it a try. Much closer to what I like to see! I got a much finer grind than with the 600. If, as Reed Grey indicates, it will stabilize after a break-in period it might get even smoother.

    I would certainly not try to reshape a tool with such a fine wheel unless I had a few days to spend. But resharpening the primary bevel on a Thompson 3/8" spindle gouge only took about 10 seconds. (I keep a jig set for just these gouges.) I sharpened a small scraper too with good results. I'll try a skew and a few other tools tomorrow, perhaps.

    This wheel came from Ken Rizza at Woodturners Wonders. It's aluminum, 10" dia, 2" wide, 1" flat down the sides, and 90-deg corners on the edges.

    Anyone else using a 1200 grit CBN? Ken said he doesn't sell many - one went to a guy sharpening scalpels.

    JKJ

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Cumberland, Maryland
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    358
    Nice to hear your impression John. I've considered this same wheel. Keep us updated as the wheel breaks in please.

  3. #3
    It will be interesting to see how it works for you. My 600 grit still cuts great, and isn't broken in yet, but I am not doing production turning any more. The 1000 grit seems to be working fine. The only 'but' I have about it was that it could be loading up. I did get a 300X camera thing to take pictures, and couldn't see any build up. I couldn't see it either when I loaded up an 80 grit wheel with brass, copper, aluminum, and some cold rolled steel. That experiment could be seen easily with a cell phone photo so it may be that we were doing some thing wrong with the camera. It still cuts, but looks darker than I would expect since I don't grind/sharpen any of my wet wood tools on it.

    As a side note, I am now using a twisted up pipe cleaner to apply some Trend lapping fluid, to the bevels to be sharpened on just about every sharpening. Seeing how this does on keeping the wheels clean, and seeing just how much more of the loading I can remove from the 80 grit wheel. I will have some video shots of it in my up coming sharpening video. No idea if keeping some lapping fluid on the wheels will make any or even much difference.

    robo hippy

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reed Gray View Post
    ...
    As a side note, I am now using a twisted up pipe cleaner to apply some Trend lapping fluid, to the bevels to be sharpened on just about every sharpening.
    You are applying it to the tool and not the wheel? How much and how often?

    I used the fluid on my 600 grit wheel on the bench grinder but dribbled it on. Some of it was thrown off right away (and the stuff is expensive!) If it really doesn't need that much maybe wiping or brushing some on the wheel would be good.

    With the Tormek I have the opportunity to easily try running the wheel in water. I think it was Ken Schroeder (can't find the note right now) who said he tried this but his wheel was steel and started to rust. My wheel is aluminum.

    I did load up the 80 grit wheel a little with some mild steel but it cleaned up quickly just as you said by grinding a bit on a (Thompson) lathe tool.

    JKJ

  5. #5
    I would think that with a metal grinding wheel, aluminum or steel, if you add water, the filings will rust as well, but don't know.

    As for the lapping fluid, applying to the tool bevel seems to work best and then that applies it to the wheel. I have tried putting drops on the wheel and smearing it around with my finger, and or a rag, but it flies off when I turn on the grinder, and if I am in the line of fire, I get a small racing stripe. Thought about the pipe cleaner, or a plastic Q tip; to insert through the hole in the top of the Trend bottle (pop the pivoting lid off first). One bottle is almost empty, but I just shake it. I just get the bevel damp. The fluid isn't cheap, and this is easier than trying to put a drop on direct from the bottle, and less wasteful...

    robo hippy

  6. #6
    The MSDS for the lapping fluid seems to say that it's entirely or almost entirely odorless mineral spirits. Those are the only ingredients listed, anyway. Is it really better than, say, WD40 or plain mineral spirits?

  7. #7
    There was a thread here a while back about 'lapping' fluid, and there are a number of variations and home made concoctions. I don't know that any one of them would work better than the others. There is one brand, Bora, that Woodcraft carries that contains 'petroleum distillates' and is flammable. Smells like mineral spirits to me. I would think any light machine oil could work well, but I wouldn't use Boeshield as it seems to be sticky. This may also keep the metal dust down. WD40 may work well also, but I think to try them all out, I would need 5 or so grinders and a set of identical CBN wheels on all of them.... Maybe if I ever win the lottery...

    robo hippy

  8. #8
    John what is the major advantage for you to use the CBN wheel compared to the stone water wheel? I would think not having to dress it and always being a consistent size would be a big plus. I guess going to the 1200 grit is to get the same or better quality or sharpness.

    Reed, if I remember correctly Alan Lacer recommends WD40 to clean the diamond hone that he sells.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    I tried in vain to sharpen my big ( 1 1/4") Laser ground skew on my Tormach. I just couldn't do it. If you find a way to sharpen a skew (other than the oval ones which I and Allen hate) please let us all know how it was done.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Seyfried View Post
    John what is the major advantage for you to use the CBN wheel compared to the stone water wheel? I would think not having to dress it and always being a consistent size would be a big plus. I guess going to the 1200 grit is to get the same or better quality or sharpness.
    Jim, I used the water wheel for over a decade and the 600 grit CBN for a year or so on the Tormek. Here are some pros and cons that I can think of at the moment:

    Pros of CBN compared to the water wheel
    - Quicker to begin sharpening. I can sharpen immediately without having to spend 5-10 min getting the water wheel ready. (The wheel soaks up a lot of water so I would put the tray in place and fill it with water, turn on the motor wait for it to soak in, add more water, wait some more. When finished sharpening, the tray needs to be removed and occasionally cleaned out. I tended to save all my sharpening for one marathon session.)

    - The wheel is always flat and never needs to be dressed and trued. It takes a significant amount of time to true the stone Tormek wheel properly since it is large and turns so slowly.

    - The wheel always remains 10" in diameter. I went though two stone wheels, discarding them when they got down to about 8" in diameter. Since the CBN wheel doesn't get smaller the jigs don't have to be adjusted to compensate.

    - The CBN supposedly doesn't wear out. (This remains to be proven.) This may be less expense in the long run.

    - Minor point: I don't have to deal with the water itself. I don't have to keep jugs of water on hand for the water wheel. And the water can be messy, especially when I'm in klutz mode. Years ago I went to a stainless steel table for my sharpening since the inevitable water spill was hard on the wooden table.


    Cons of CBN compared to the water wheel
    - A new CBN wheel is pretty expensive, even compared to the "overpriced" stone wheels.

    - Lathe tools, by nature, become magnetized with use. When sharpening with the wheel turning away from the edge, a magnetized tool can hold a long trail of black steel powder which is annoying, and worse, obscures the edge. I keep an old bulk magnetic tape demagnetizer hanging by the Tormek and zap the tools for a few seconds if needed.

    - Fine steel dust floats in the air everywhere with the dry CBN, where the water wheel captures it. You can see the dust floating in the air with the right lighting. I have some strong magnets stored on the back side of my bandsaw cabinet at least 10' from the Tormek. After some use, these magnets are covered with the finest steel dust you can imagine. What is this doing to our lungs, to finishes, electronic and optical equipment? A dust mask, dust collection, and possibly a room air cleaner are recommended. I'm hoping the honing fluid reduces the floating steel dust but this needs testing.

    - I got a finer edge on my spindle gouges and skews with the water wheel than I got with the 600 CBN, the biggest reason I bought a 1200 grit to try. (As mentioned, the edge is better now, perhaps as good or better than the water wheel, don't know yet.) Tormek uses a silicon carbide grading stone to make the same wheel coarser or finer. This actually works pretty well. Using CBN would require changing wheels or multiple Tormeks. (I'm still looking for a second one)

    Neither Pro nor Con:
    - Putting a new edge on a tool takes only seconds on either the water wheel or the CBN on the Tormek. Shaping a new profile takes FOREVER on both. The first time I tried reshaping a large oval skew I couldn't believe how long it took. A large negative rake scraper? Forget it.

    Years ago I solved the problem of shaping a tool by adding a Tormek support bar to a standard bench grinder so I can use my Tormek jigs. (They eventually came out with a kit just for this.) The fact that one is 8" diameter and one 10" diameter doesn't make as much difference as one might imagine. I keep a couple of grinders with CBN wheels in 80 to 600 grits for flexibility. It might seem odd to have a 600 grit grinding wheel next to a 600 grit Tormek wheel but this worked very well for me since I prefer to sharpen skew chisels freehand with a platform instead of a jig - I can sharpen a skew on the 1750 rpm grinder almost before I can get it set up properly in the Tormek jig! (I also sharpen most other tools freehand on the grinders: scrapers, parting tools, bedan, some bowl gouges, etc.) I'll have to see how the 1200 grit wheel changes things for the skews. After seeing the initial results with the spindle gouges I may end up getting a 1200 for the grinder too. I have an 8' long space for my sharpening station and it's starting to get tight... :-)

    JKJ

  11. #11
    Yea, the dust is a problem with the CBN wheels. I don't think magnets are a good solution, but they will get most. I am thinking a bench top air scrubber and hood, with the intake off to the side a bit so the air scrubber doesn't inhale any sparks. Hoping that using lapping fluid will cut down on the dust considerably. I have had 'fuzzy tools' when I do a lot of sharpening and lay them down by the grinder... My oldest set of CBN wheels are 5 or more years old, can't remember any more. They are a lot slower to take off metal than they used to be and if I go to a new wheel to do minimal shaping the difference is pretty huge. They still leave an excellent cutting edge. I haven't done production turning for several years, but they have seen a lot of use. Glen Lucas 'finds good homes for his 1 year old CBN wheels'. I plan to ask him why when I get to meet him in KC at the Symposium. As for grading the Tormek wheels, I had an old grey one that I wore out. When ever I tried to grade it to the fine grit, there were always patches that would stay coarse, no matter how much attention I paid to my grading process. If you want to reshape a tool, serious reshaping I am talking about, 36 grit belt or wheel on high speed grinder. Most saw sharpening shops will have them if you don't. Otherwise, just change it a bit at a time......

    robo hippy

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    761
    I wore out the original white wheel and a replacement grey wheel on my Tormek. A new white wheel is $185, grey wheel is $210, and in 2015 a CBN for my Tormek was $245. So it was a no brainer for me to spend a few more dollars on the CBN from WoodTurners Wonders and not ever have to worry about the wheel getting smaller or having to grade the wheel. Those are the two biggest reasons for going to a CBN wheel in my opinion.

    I must admit I'm not very nice to my wheels. I like the water bath on the stone wheel that collects all the shavings. Yes I know you're suppose to empty the trough afterwards but I never did - I just added more water to it as needed. The CBN wheel can get a loud tinny (sp?) noise as you grind towards the edge of the wheel. It's almost like you need to wear earplugs. I also missed the water bath and don't like the filings building up on the edge of the tool as I grind. So I still use water in the trough with my CBN to help dampen noise and collect filings. Yes I know that you're suppose to dry the wheel afterwards but I don't. The surface of the wheel looks a little rough, maybe rusted, but it doesn't seem to affect the performance at all. I'd like to find something like Trend Lapping Fluid in a large enough quantity that I could use it instead of water.

    I got a 320 grit Tormek wheel, and if I had to do it over again I'd go for a 220 grit. I only use my Tormek for sharpening bowl and spindle gouges, and I use a dry grinder for everything else. I have the adapter to use the Tormek jig on a dry grinder (with 180 grit CBN), but I find it removes too much material too fast. I'll use that setup for sharpening my 3/4" bowl gouge, but all my other gouges are done on the Tormek and it takes 10-15 seconds at most to sharpen an edge.

    When I talked to Glenn Lucas last year, he said he doesn't use a CBN wheel on his Tormek machines.

  13. #13
    Thank you for such a detailed review John! I need to make a more dedicated sharpening station, the other day I must have used either the dry grinder base or the Wolverine sharpening jig to help me stand up and knocked the Delta grinder on the floor. Thought I might have ruined a CBN wheel. They were alright, but I bent the shaft on the grinder. I guess that was better than running the CBN wheel as they were more expensive. Was thinking about getting one for the Tormek even though I have the life time replacement for the grinding stone. Now I am looking for a new dry grinder. Probably will get the 1hp Rikon, would be nice to get a Baldor, but I'm having trouble justifying the price difference.

    Pat, I didn't know that you are supposed to remove the water when done using the Tormek. I must have skipped that part of the manual, is it bad for the wheel to leave it in? Typically it evaporates on mine. Now that I have added a Wolverine jig it is more difficult to remove the tray to empty it. For using water with the CBN wheel on I wonder if one of the additives to coolant for metal working would keep the metal dust from rusting/discoloring the wheel?

  14. #14
    The 1 hp Rikon is a pretty good grinder for the price, and has power to spare. Biggest difference between the Rikon and the Baldor, other than price is the Rikon is noisier. Add a bit to final fit and finish, the Baldor is way above the Rikon. First thing I did with my Rikon, was remove the tool rests they supplied, and the light which would just barely reach to shine where you wanted it. I wanted it bolted to a piece of plywood so I could take it for demonstrations, so I took the rubber feet off. I had to grind 1/8 inch off of one of the feet to get it to sit flat on the plywood, that is how far off the castings were. With the wheel guards, one I could pivot a little so the robo rest would slide up to the proper position. The other side, I had to ream out the bolt holes and rotate the wheel guard about 1/2 inch so I could slide my robo rest up on that side. I also had to put the Wolverine platform up on about a 5/8 thick piece of plywood to get it to height, which is a pretty minimal problem. It does have plenty of power, 1 hp compared to the Baldor's 3/4 hp. I would rate them equally strong. Oh, 5/8 shaft on the Rikon, 3/4 on the Baldor.

    robo hippy

  15. #15
    Robo Hippy, do you find the Wheel guards to be useful for dust or safety? The best price I have found for the Rikon sells them without them.

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