Member
The Berg chisels that I own are very very hard. It took forever to flatten the backs but they do hold their edge very well when hammered. I sharpen freehand with an angle >30° (closer to 35°) with oil stones and a strop.
I also own a set of PM-V11 and I get more nicks/breaks/chips with them than the Berg. I've never been entirely satisfied with the PM-V11 (that's why I bought the Bergs) but everybody else seems to love them...go figure!. I keep my PM-V11 chisels for paring.
Contributor
Expecting a higher quality doesn't make sense to me. That they may have different qualities does make sense.Originally Posted by Warren Mickley
When you mention the sharpening media, something clicked. At times with select chisels during sharpening the burr seems to become more like a foil trailing the edge. Is it possible Niels has a very small bit of wire edge left that is strong enough to cut hair but rolls over in the wood?
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Contributor
Any word from the OP about what he found out?
[OP]
Member
No news yet - waiting for shipment of some Narex 8116 chisels so I can compare.
They are certainly not the worlds most expensive chisels, but have received good reviews when price is taken into the equation.
If they work without any question I will park the Bergs for now so I can get on with the project.
I've spent a lot more time sharpening up more of my set of Bergs and I have to say I'm getting more and more frustrated with the Scary Sharp system.
Until now I've only used it a little bit to lap brand new plane irons and perform the necessary touch up after significant use, and for that it has proven really useful.
However for flattening the backs of chisels i.e. more heavy use I'm rather annoyed by the work effort needed to remove used paper, clean the glue and re-glue sandpaper without air bubbles.
I'm actually considering investing in a set of Naniwa stones, but so far I'm holding my breath (and money) until the Narex chisels arrive.
Perhaps they will just work similar to new plane irons and if so I'll be happy with the Scary Sharp system.
Let's see what happens...
Contributor
One...I do not glue the sandpaper down. After I am done with the 1000 grit oil stone, I lay the next grit of wet-or-dry paper right on the stone. Oil on the stone will keep the paper in place. I go 1.5K, 2K, 2.5K then strop with an old leather belt with some green compound smeared on it. When I am using the chisel, after each cut or so, I will strop the edge on the pants leg of my jeans, dry. Few strokes on the bevel, couple on the back. Then back to work.
Have tried gluing paper down...found the glue was leaving bumps in the paper. Threw the entire mess out.
BTW: IF there is a dealer that does auto painting, they will have up to 3000 grit paper. some may have even high grits. Might ask around...
[OP]
Member
I should have specified that the paper I have on stock (and plenty of it, one wouldn't want to ever run dry...*sigh*) is with adhesive backing, so I doubt your method would work properly.
I think the paper works fine, it just seems to dull really quickly when deep scratches etc. needs to be removed and it takes me quite some time to ensure the glass plate is completely clean before I can apply a new sheet.
Contributor
Have you ever tried a 35* bevel (can be a secondary or micro bevel) on your Bergs? 35* bevel on a mortising chisel is not at all uncommon. Also, it is my belief (for what ever it is worth) that lots/many folks that start with the Scary Sharp System, and are fairly active in woodworking, eventually move on to some other sharpening system due to some of the issues you describe.
David
Member
Working on a Pad and not smart enough to figure out how to cut parts of a quote, but smart enough to be doing this while on a beach in Mexico.
While sandpaper is a PITA so are water stones. If you decide to change look at some of the other options like oil or Spiderco and diamond.
ken
[OP]
Member
While not trying to startup sharpening thread number 99999999, would you care to elaborate?Working on a Pad and not smart enough to figure out how to cut parts of a quote, but smart enough to be doing this while on a beach in Mexico
While sandpaper is a PITA so are water stones. If you decide to change look at some of the other options like oil or Spiderco and diamond.
ken
I've been using camelia oil on my Scary Sharp setup and it doesn't make me more positive about it....
I haven't tried any other sharpening method (well a Tormek), but reading about the different stone types I like the fact that I wouldn't have the oily mess and it would be easy to clean the slurry etc.
Also, as far as I can read, water stones cut significantly faster than oil stones.
One disadvantage is that water stones (depending on their hardness) wears faster and must be flattened.
Whether that proves to be as annoying as what I experience now with the replacement of paper is still unknown to me.
These facts together make me prefer water stones (for now at least) since I would like a sharpening setup that is fast to setup, fast to use and one that delivers consistent results.
If you think oil stones deliver better on those requirements please enlighten me :-)
Contributor
For water stones there is a lot more water involved than there is oil involved for oil stones. Many people switch to oilstones out of frustration with having to clean up more after using their water stones. My solution for this is a separate, yet small, area in my shop just for using water stones. Not to be left out there is also a separate area set up for using oilstones.
Water stones do cut significantly faster than oil. They are also more susceptible to blades catching and digging in. The process of flattening a water stone can be time consuming and messy to boot. The more of a perfectionist one happens to be the more time they will spend flattening stones. Not being a perfectionist my stones may get flattened every month or two.
A couple of my softer Arkansas stones are in need of some flattening. I have had one of them for almost 50 years.
Once a blade is in pretty good shape it won't take a lot of work on oilstones to keep it maintained. The problem is when the blade gets nicked. Then it is time for abrasive paper. For my needs the scary sharp method is still used to get blades ready for water or oilstones.
The difference in price between a few good oilstones may not be much difference than a few good water stones.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
Every sharpening system has disadavantages. It's a matter of choosing something where you can live with the disadvantages as best as you can. I could handle the water mess (and it really is a mess after a while, not just water but also lots of grit), but I couldn't live with small tools or gouges constantly digging in. I am now much happier with the oilstones, and was surprised how the mess easilly cleans up with a paper towel. The water stones are indeed cutting quicker. That is offset with the neccessity to flatten them all the time (more mess).
I understand that those ceramic stones are a great choice too, but I never tried them.
[OP]
Member
I'm looking at water stones that are splash and go and after reading reviews etc. it seems possible to have very little mess.
Perhaps I'm mistaken...
How much effort is neeed to flatten an oil stone vs. a water stone? Is there a difference or is it the same?A couple of my softer Arkansas stones are in need of some flattening. I have had one of them for almost 50 years.
This is the primary reason why I'm considering moving to stones instead of paper, yes the 100micron paper can cut fast, but it also gets dull rather quickly and more so on higher grits.Once a blade is in pretty good shape it won't take a lot of work on oilstones to keep it maintained. The problem is when the blade gets nicked. Then it is time for abrasive paper. For my needs the scary sharp method is still used to get blades ready for water or oilstones.
Are you using paper since you don't have a coarse stone or for some other reason?
Again, as far as I can tell it should be possible to use a coarse stone that would cut faster or similarly fast as paper, while not needing a lot of maintenance. Am I wrong?
Contributor
The mess from waterstones does not come from soaking, it comes from using them. The stone wears as you sharpen, releasing a grit, or slurry, which is messy. I tend to see more mess with lower grits, and less mess with higher grits, but that may depend on the type of stone, I don't know. How much it bothers you depends on your personality, and probably your shop.
Except for Ken. He hates waterstones because he lives in Arizona. Waterstones need water to work, and they don't have any down there in the desert. So you can imagine his frustration.
My experience with coarse stones has not been great, but is admittedly very limited. I have a Norton 220 grit waterstone that wears so fast it requires constant flattening. I would not recommend it to anyone.
For major reshaping of an edge, some folks use diamond stones I think. Some people use sandpaper. I have gone to a grinder, which works pretty well. Some people worry about burning edges, others say it is just a question of skill. Mine is hand cranked, and has one of those cool wheels on it, so I think I would have to work pretty hard to ruin an edge. I go from the grinder to a 1000/8000 combination waterstone, and then finish on a strop. Works for me.
George Wilson has posted a dozen or so times about his sharpening system, which is a diamond stone, followed by a couple of ceramic stones, and a strop. The trouble with that system as I understand it is getting a ceramic stone that is actually flat, because it is pretty much impossible to flatten them with anything short of diamonds. On the other hand, it leaves very little mess, will sharpen anything, and once you get the stones flat they basically never go out of flat. When my current stones wear out I may give it a try.
Contributor
Waterstones work well. For softer western chisels in plain HC steel I would most certainly use oil stones.
The important thing is that the combination of the two must be right, if you use HC steel western chisels and oil stones, it's a great combination. If you use alloy chisels, then you would benefit from a more aggressive system like most water stones.
Narex claims that you should treat their steel like you would an O1 chisel, but I have very limited experience with Narex so I will not comment WRT best sharpening media. I use natural stones with O1.
The important parts of sharpening:
-The media must match the steel well
-Remove the wear every time you sharpen.
-Maintain a flat back
-Remove the burr completely.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
Ahh, the good old Birch, the best material you could find in the wild....
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