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Thread: Back saw vs Bow saw (frame saw)

  1. #1
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    Back saw vs Bow saw (frame saw)

    I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it. So I was thinking of replacing it with a Bad Axe 16" tenon saw, but then I noticed that blackburn tools http://www.blackburntools.com/new-to...rts/index.html was offering a new 24" frame saw (bow saw). From what I've read/seen from supporters of this saw, they say it is a little lighter than the back saw despite being longer, it also has a more agressive tooth configuration so it cuts faster. I have never tried a bow saw so was wondering if anyone here has and if they could do a comparison of the two. the Bad Axe saw will run just below $400 while to bow saw is $40.

  2. #2
    Or, you can send the saw in for a tuneup.

  3. #3
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    I would say that unless you are looking for a completely new method of work and have a good understanding why you want to change, you should stick to what you know. Each have their pros and cons; it's hard to say which of those are influential to you. You obviously compare the price, as any prudent consumer does.

    I immediately struck them from my list when looking into choosing a sawing work method. They are large and IMO, have a more significant skill threshold for proper, good use. A backsaw is a dumb tool; it just goes where you tell it with your hand. Not so much frame saws. Much less specialized and therefore, more user input to get them to do various things equally well. I also don't know how many sizes, etc ... you can get away with a minimal kit; I know for joinery, I can get away with 3 backsaws + one large rip for rough cuts. Not sure what the 'spread' is for frame saws.

    Bottomline: if it's just $40, get one, build it and try it out. That's a low risk proposition.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Reilly View Post
    I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it. So I was thinking of replacing it with a Bad Axe 16" tenon saw, but then I noticed that blackburn tools http://www.blackburntools.com/new-to...rts/index.html was offering a new 24" frame saw (bow saw). From what I've read/seen from supporters of this saw, they say it is a little lighter than the back saw despite being longer, it also has a more agressive tooth configuration so it cuts faster. I have never tried a bow saw so was wondering if anyone here has and if they could do a comparison of the two. the Bad Axe saw will run just below $400 while to bow saw is $40.
    You may want to search the archives.

    A few remarks:

    1. Framesaws and bowsaws are not the same thing. A framesaw has the blade running down the middle of a rectangular box frame, such that both long sides of the box are in compression and the blade in tension. A bowsaw has a blade running down one side of an H-shaped frame, and a tensioning bar or twine on the opposite side. The center member of the "H" is under compression.

    2. Preference is a big factor. Backsaws, bowsaws handle very differently, and different people have different preferences between the two. On a related note, bow- and backsaws are associated with different woodworking traditions (Continental vs English/American).

    3. The Blackburn is a kit (blade and HW) with an unsharpened blade. You still need to build the frame and assemble everything, and also sharpen the blade. The Bad Axe is a complete saw, finished and tuned to perfection by Mark Harrell. If you paid somebody to make and tune a framesaw to similar standards it would cost a lot more than $40. This kit might be a more apples-to-apples comparison, though even that isn't a complete saw.

    4. Cut speed depends a lot on the blade and toothing, so you need to make sure to compare apples to apples in that regard.

    5. Both frame- and bowsaws can cut to effectively unlimited depth (since the blade can be rotated out of the plane of the frame) while backsaws are always limited by the tooth->spine distance.

    FWIW I use bow- and backsaws for various stuff. I prefer the feel of backsaws, but there are times when the ability to rotate the frame/back out of the way is really handy. I have no significant experience with framesaws - hopefully somebody like George will comment about that.

  5. #5
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    Good question; when I started woodworking I was an avid reader of Tage Fried's books (I'm sure I probably spelled that wrong) and he is a strong advocate of the bow saw.


    I've built several bow saws both rip and crosscut and my experience is it's more difficult to get them to cut straight than a back saw. I particularly had high hopes that the 5 PPI bow saw would be good for resawing, but I rarely use it now as I have real trouble getting it to track straight. The one bow saw I do use is a smaller 11 PPI ripsaw that works great for gang cutting dovetail pins in thick stock.


    All the best, Mike

  6. #6
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    I have all of the above including a bow saw I made. I bought a kit on line from Tools for Working Wood. It does an excellent job. I also have several back saws. They also do an excellent job.
    I made a backsaw from a Ron Bontz kit. It also does an excellent job. It is a 16X 4 saw plate and I made it rip cut using curly maple for the handle.
    I am completely satisfied withboth saws. I suggest two kits, one of each.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    Good question; when I started woodworking I was an avid reader of Tage Fried's books (I'm sure I probably spelled that wrong) and he is a strong advocate of the bow saw.
    Tage Frid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    I've built several bow saws both rip and crosscut and my experience is it's more difficult to get them to cut straight than a back saw. I particularly had high hopes that the 5 PPI bow saw would be good for resawing, but I rarely use it now as I have real trouble getting it to track straight. The one bow saw I do use is a smaller 11 PPI ripsaw that works great for gang cutting dovetail pins in thick stock.
    This sounds more like a sharpening or tuning issue than anything. Granted a bowsaw will always be able to turn a bit faster, because the blade is shorter and can rotate more in the kerf if you twist it, but there's no reason why the tracking should be inherently worse provided you aren't *trying* to make it pivot.

    The only bowsaw I've really ever had trouble with was the one that came with a Nobex miter box, and that turned out to be a sharpening issue (the toothline had burring that gave one side more set than the other).

  8. #8
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    I have an old LN 16" thin plate tenon saw that has a really bad "S" curve in it.
    Have you tried to remove the curve from the saw plate?

    Here is an old post that might help:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ent-saw-blades

    It is one of many great links in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...al-wisdom-FAQs

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #9
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    Just a nickels worth. Save your self some money and frustration. If it is the 16" x 4" under spine x 0.020" plate, just send the saw back to it's maker and have them go over it. Tune it/repair it, etc. They are pretty good about standing behind their product. Thin plate saws, regardless of the type of back used, tend to have issues. Too lengthy a subject to get into. Best wishes.

  10. #10
    And ask them to cut of an inch from that 4" height at the same time. All that height on a thin blade is not really such a great idea.

  11. #11
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    I use my bow saw often. It cuts a straight line quickly. You can drill a hole and cut a large through mortise with it, no back saw can do that!
    I lent it to a guy building a deck once after he blew up his chop saw so he could continue while it was repaired. He and three others tried but could not cut a straight line. I repeatedly showed them but for some reason it eluded them.
    I plan to build a smaller one. You should try them.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post
    And ask them to cut of an inch from that 4" height at the same time. All that height on a thin blade is not really such a great idea.
    Indeed. Does anybody happen to know whether that saw was a carryover from Independence, or something L-N added in a manic fit of "Keeping up with the Dozukis"? I suspect the latter, but am curious.

    (in case it isn't obvious, I'm not a fan of super-thin plates on Western backsaws. They're just not the right platform for that IMO)

  13. #13
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    I cut dove tails and m&t joints with a dove tail saw and cut curves and shapes with my bow saw. I do not see them as interchangeable.
    And, I cut dimension lumber with my 10 pt. Disston D7.
    Last edited by lowell holmes; 06-14-2017 at 2:01 PM.

  14. #14
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    Having an early Lee Nielsen dove tail and two Lee Nielsen carcass saws, they are the leaders, not keep uppers. I have absolutely no reason to cut height from their saws.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    in case it isn't obvious, I'm not a fan of super-thin plates on Western backsaws. They're just not the right platform for that IMO
    What do you consider super-thin? 0.020"? anything less than that?

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