Frog Position Question

[John Schtrumpf]

I think that they should include instructions as to how to properly set up the cap iron for optimizing performance. That's what I expect from a technology provider.

From the Veritas #4 Bench Plane instructions:

Cap Iron Setting


In addition to the mouth, the position of the cap iron on the blade should
be set appropriately for the type of planing to be done. The distance from
the leading edge of the cap iron to the cutting edge of the blade should be
1/64" or less for smoothing, particularly when working diffi cult grain in
hardwoods, to as much as 1/16" for rough work in softwoods.


To remove the cap iron, loosen the lever cap knob and withdraw the lever
cap followed by the blade assembly, which includes the cap iron. Loosen
the cap iron screw and reposition the cap iron as required. Retighten the
screw to secure the cap iron in place, being sure to keep the leading edge
parallel to the cutting edge of the blade.

[Stewie Simpson]

Both Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen have promoted high angle planes for difficult woods for many years. They still promote these clumsy and expensive solutions to tear out.

Lee Valley says " our state-of-the-art [bevel up] smoothing plane is the tool to use for the final finish on surfaces, especially woods of difficult grain patterns. ... The 12° bed angle, coupled with the 38° blade bevel, yields an effective cutting angle of 50°, often called York pitch. This is an ideal starting angle for minimizing tear-out on difficult wood. For the most difficult grains, even higher cutting angles (for creating Type II chips) can be achieved."

Lie Nielsen says "York Pitch will handle most tear-out prone wood well. Middle Pitch is for the most difficult woods. Using one of these frogs will eliminate the need for scrapers, in most cases." and "A big part of a chipbreaker's function is to dampen vibration".

It could be they are trying to deceive their customers, but I think they just have no idea how to use a double iron plane.

Warren; I see no fault in Lie Nielsen's recommendations on using a high angle approach to control tear-out. Bu or Bd. In fact LV promote the very same recommendation within their range of Veritas Custom Bench Planes. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/CustomPlane.aspx

Are they also trying to deceive their customers. I don't believe so. More likely, both LN and LV are fully aware that there is more than 1 approach to address tear-out. Clearly a fact that you are still struggling to come to terms with.


A single iron bd smoother after its defection angle was increased from York pitch to Cabinet Pitch.

[Derek Cohen]

.....

I found it interesting that LV resisted moving to LN-style cap irons for a very long time (until they intro'd the custom plane line). Unfortunately our market and trade press can be spectacularly ignorant, so in the end LV had no real choice. I can't count the number of times I've seen reviewers list a "solid cap iron" as an advantage, or criticize a plane for using a Stanley-style cap iron.

That's not correct, Patrick. LV were making solid chipbreakers before they began offering their Custom range. Here is a review I wrote in 2013.

For reference, the very first review I wrote (and I'd have to find the date and copy - it was a long time ago), was when LN changed their chipbreaker over from the Stanley style. Could have been about 2004 or so.

At that time, about 8 years (or more) before we began discussing the chipbreaker on the forums as a method of controlling tearout, it was believed that a solid chipbreaker would help damp vibration and, in connection with a close up mouth, thereby control tearout.

I know today that a LN chipbreaker will not close up on a Stanley plane (as the adjuster slot is 1/4" further back). At that time, everyone (but a few) pulled the chipbreaker back about 1/8" from the blade, and so it did not matter. Nevertheless, I do recall that there was a improvement using the LN chipbreaker in place of the Stanley (also pulled back to 1/8"). The point being, the solid chipbreaker does appear to offer better damping properties in this configuration.

I am not sure whether LN have altered their view that tearout is best controlled with a high cutting angle (I do not attend their workshops or discuss planes with their staff). I do believe that LV has - the Custom planes were conceived originally (around 2012 - pre discussions on the forums) as a single iron plane. However, they were subsequently re-designed to include a chipbreaker. Clearly LV were listening and learning. In addition, I do discuss these matters with the LV design team.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

That's not correct, Patrick. LV were making solid chipbreakers before they began offering their Custom range. Here is a review I wrote in 2013.

For reference, the very first review I wrote (and I'd have to find the date and copy - it was a long time ago), was when LN changed their chipbreaker over from the Stanley style. Could have been about 2004 or so.

Those are the chipbreakers that they sell for Stanley planes, right?

I should have been clearer that I was referring to the irons they make for their own planes. Prior to the custom line all Veritas-branded BD bench planes had Stanley-style cap irons. I know this for a fact, because I have one of each (#4, #4-1/2, #5-1/4W, #6) and they were all bought relatively recently.

At that time, about 8 years (or more) before we began discussing the chipbreaker on the forums as a method of controlling tearout, it was believed that a solid chipbreaker would help damp vibration and, in connection with a close up mouth, thereby control tearout.

"It is believed by a bunch of forum-dwellers" is a far cry from "it is true". As an engineer who has examined and used both, I can assure you that the two designs perform indistinguishably in terms of damping. I'd also heard the claims that the solid type are better, but like many such claims they are inconsistent with physical reality.

Anecdotal accounts along the lines of "I switched to X and it seemed better" are inherently untrustworthy. You of all people (as a psychologist) should realize what sorts of cognitive biases come into play there. Read Kahneman and Tversky if you don't know what I'm referring to. I don't even trust my own non-blind impressions in cases where I have any sort of "investment" in what I'm evaluating.

IMO to assess that sort of thing you either have to rely on objective analysis (which doesn't suggest any advantage for the solid irons as far as I can tell), or perform proper blind or double-blind comparisons.

[Jim Koepke]

Derek; you may want to ask yourself the very same question. Its no secret of your close business relationship with LV. (Payment from receiving free tools is still a payment for your services). It seems every time you post new content on this and other forums, its deemed by you as another opportunity to either shill LVs tooling, or discredit LN, who are in direct competition with LV.

Stewie;

Stewie, I know you do not give a rat's patoot about what I think, but I do think your post is a bit much.

Is there anyone who has been on SMC for any amount of time that doesn't know Rob Lee and Derek Cohen are friends?

My recollection is Derek has stated that if a tool is sent for trial he either pays for it or sends it back. (Doesn't matter to me.) Maybe Derek can clear this up again to everyone's satisfaction.

Personally I think Rob Lee makes great tools. He did send me a plow plane for trial and review. I think it is a great tool. I also sent it back. I am not much of one for new tools when the old ones are available at a lower price.

Though LV and LN may be competing for customers, the two businesses are different. LN appeals to people who like tools from "the Golden Age of Stanley Tools."

LV is offering new designs and innovations for a new age.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Derek; you may want to ask yourself the very same question. Its no secret of your close business relationship with LV. (Payment from receiving free tools is still a payment for your services). It seems every time you post new content on this and other forums, its deemed by you as another opportunity to either shill LVs tooling, or discredit LN, who are in direct competition with LV. I have no wish for further confrontation with you Derek., but if you continue posting personal attacks about me on this and other forum sites, then expect the odd negative reaction.

Stewie;

Aww c'mon Stewie, not this cr*p again.

I actually agree with your argument here (the part about cap irons, not the part about Derek's integrity), but I couldn't disagree more with how you're going about it. You would be more credible and the entire forum would be more pleasant if you stuck to addressing the points and not the person. You're better than this Stewie.

And yes, I am aware that I myself stepped closer to that line than I should have when I made reference to Derek's day job while addressing the topic of cognitive bias. My apologies to all for doing that.

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie, I do not have a "close business relationship with LV". I do not receive "payment for (my) services". You have this thing, don't you. It really irks you. Time to get your head out of the gutter and grow up. Along with several others, I have had the opportunity to field test Lee Valley tools before they go into production. This is a common arrangement among tool makers. I am in a privileged position in regard to experiences with tools (is that what irks you?), and just happen to want to pass on my observations to others. If you look at my website you will see that there are many other makers included.

With regard your other point (my criticising you for frequent sniping on the forum), any time you wish me to post the private messages you sent me for others to read, well just go ahead and say so. I'm sure that they will find your comments interesting.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, I know you do not give a rat's patoot about what I think, but I do think your post is a bit much.

Is there anyone who has been on SMC for any amount of time that doesn't know Rob Lee and Derek Cohen are friends?

My recollection is Derek has stated that if a tool is sent for trial he either pays for it or sends it back. (Doesn't matter to me.) Maybe Derek can clear this up again to everyone's satisfaction.

Personally I think Rob Lee makes great tools. He did send me a plow plane for trial and review. I think it is a great tool. I also sent it back. I am not much of one for new tools when the old ones are available at a lower price.

Though LV and LN may be competing for customers, the two businesses are different. LN appeals to people who like tools from "the Golden Age of Stanley Tools."

LV is offering new designs and innovations for a new age.

jtk

Jim; your claim is not correct.

Stewie;

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...Private Letters now, is it? I have no doubt the love affair you two are having will be of great help to the OP.

What's next? Photos?

Horse has been well beatened on this thread,.......same old, same old....

[Stewie Simpson]

Hmmm...Private Letters now, is it? I have no doubt the love affair you two are having will be of great help to the OP.

What's next? Photos?

Horse has been well beatened on this thread,.......same old, same old....

Steven; appreciate you leaving me holding the can. My name was not the only name on Derek's list.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, I do not have a "close business relationship with LV". I do not receive "payment for (my) services". You have this thing, don't you. It really irks you. Time to get your head out of the gutter and grow up. Along with several others, I have had the opportunity to field test Lee Valley tools before they go into production. This is a common arrangement among tool makers. I am in a privileged position in regard to experiences with tools (is that what irks you?), and just happen to want to pass on my observations to others. If you look at my website you will see that there are many other makers included.

With regard your other point (my criticising you for frequent sniping on the forum), any time you wish me to post the private messages you sent me for others to read, well just go ahead and say so. I'm sure that they will find your comments interesting.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek. Post them.

Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Moderators; close down my membership to this forum site. Effective immediately.

Stewie Simpson.

[steven c newman]

After an tire day of traveling from Virginia back to my house ( including ALL of WV...) and then come back to read all of this stuff....

Tired of every other sentence posted to a question by him being an "AD" for a company's products. Sounds almost like a "Snake Oil Huckster" that would travel from town to town, and then leave with the people's money.

or...hearing about the "facts" that since one doesn't buy the "Latest & Greatest" tool on the market, one just can not be taken as a "serious" woodworker....

Did not "leave you "holding the can", I no longer feed such people.......whether they be Tom, Bert, or William.....

[James Waldron]

Biting tongue. Holding breath. Attempting to hack Derek's PM archive. No success so far.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim

I would not post someone's PMs, even those of Stewie.

Regards from Perth

Derek