New setup advise

[Evan Stewart]

Hi there everyone. This is my first post, I've been using this site for a couple of years as a reference and I want to say thank you all for the wealth of information. I will try to make this post as concise as possible but I feel that I need to give some background info to provide a clear picture. <br><br>I am originally from coastal Maine and started working in the trade 20 years ago and did mostly renovation and restoration of 100-200 year old houses and some new construction. We moved to the Washington DC area 6 years ago and I started a business there building a decent business and reputation. I started having serious back issues several years ago and have undergone every treatment short of surgery. At that point I started really trying to move my business to more custom work and less heavy duty work like major renovation, decks, etc. Given my background in historic renovation I had some skill and knowledge in woodworking and was able to build a decent reputation for this type of work. Over the last couple of years I have put together a decent home shop ( approx. 1000sqft including paint area and storage ) and have managed to crank out a fair amount of product. I have no experience in production woodworking and all of my systems and setups have been changed multiple times by trial and error in the never ending search for greater efficiency.

The majority of my work is for custom full room full height bookshelves, large media units, some kitchen cabinets and built-in dressers. I generally construct individual units up to 34"W x 92"T and then join multiple units together on site to create the look of large built-in units. I do my own finishing mostly because I don't have a qualified finisher locally and to keep costs down. I want to make it clear that I have no previous finishing experience and this has been the most challenging area for me. I started off painting by hand using mostly BM advance and I do produce a decent brush finish but given the labor and dry times this was almost prohibitive. I have gone through multiple small low price hand held self contained cup guns with varying degrees of success. After switching to Target coatings pigmented lacquer ( generally what I use now for solid color finishes ) I started using Graco truecoat airless sprayers and have gone through 3 of them at $285/each. I was able to achieve an acceptable finish with this gun but only spraying on flat surfaces so for the last couple of years I have been finishing before assembly in order to be able to lay all the pieces flat for finishing. While I can spray everything that can fit in my 12'x12' paint area in like 2 mins with the airless gun on flat surfaces it becomes quite a bottleneck in my operation to do things this way. Aside from the obvious problems with space and time that spraying each side of up to 100 separate pieces there are the added headaches of assembling cabinets that are already finished and the methods that requires. I have personally found it impossible to spray an assembled unit with my gun and finish. <br><br>I am aware that the setup I am using is not adequate or appropriate for what I am doing. I would love to be able to finish my work at least partially assembled. I currently have a couple small pancake compressors that I use for guns and blowers and a dual tank ridged 5 gal 5cfm@90. I generally use target pigmented lacquer and BM advance for solid colors and general finishes dyes and stains and target stains and clear lacquer.

So here is my question finally...I have done a fair amount of research and I am still very undecided on what the best move is. I don't want to spend more than $650-$700 and would like to find something that will require less than the 40 mins of cleanup that all of my other guns have. This bottle neck in finishing is the only major thing holding my business back. Can any of you guys please give me your suggestions of what you think would be a good choice? I am obviously looking for suggestions for new sprayers but also any other improvements that may be obvious to more experienced people than myself. I currently have an 8 piece $10K media and bookshelf working and the thought of finishing it all in pieces again is very discouraging since based on past projects of this size I know it will take at least a couple of weeks start to finish. I apologize for the long post.

[Andy Giddings]

Congrats on your first post and your new business Evan.

Regarding the spray equipment, I would have thought you could use an HVLP conversion gun with your 5 gal compressor. Jeff Jewitt at Homestead Finishing Products has a range of guns and I believe one (AM-6008 LVLP) in his range suits a medium size compressor (6cfm at 40psi) such as yours. You could add the 3M PPS system to make cleanup quicker. I would give him a call or email him to ask whether this would be better than your airless setup. I believe an LVLP unit will have a lot less overspray than an airless (less wasted material and a finer finish)

Regarding how to move to the next level with your business - I know you've considered finding someone to finish your product, but I would recommend at least pursuing this to the point where a comparative cost analysis has been done (assuming you haven't done this already). Reason for this is you may find you are losing opportunities due to the time sink of doing your own finishing. If you have a waiting list, it may be more cost effective to concentrate on the design, build and install. It's certainly possible to spray a fully assembled piece (I prefer doing it without a back panel as it makes it a lot easier) but it takes practice.

[Evan Stewart]

Thanks for the reply Andy. I also just realized the stupid auto correct put advise instead of advice on the title, oops. I have been looking at the LVLP guns and I have pretty much decided on either an LVLP or a smaller turbine system like a Fuji. The main concern I have with the LVLP is getting some honest feedback on how well these systems work compared to a decent HVLP and a turbine unit. As I'm sure anyone who has done some internet searching on this and associated topics can attest that there is almost too much information and so much of it is from company reps. And to be honest a lot of it is geared toward people far more experienced and knowledgeable in this area than I am and I am a little confused.

After using an airless gun that blows through a qt of material in 60 seconds at 1200 psi I am having a hard time wrapping my head around a gun running at 25-35 psi. Am I correct in assuming that this detail is what will enable greater control and allow you to spray pieces that are not sitting flat? When you guys spray assembled boxes do you rotate them so that the surfaces are flat or are you able to get effective transfer on vertical and or upside down surfaces? When doing boxes with multiple fixed shelves do you guys generally spray these fully assembled ( minus the backs ) or spray the shelves separately?

[Andy Giddings]

Evan, you don't need a turbine with the gun I recommended - I was trying to keep your spend low :-) Of course you could get a Fuji but it's not necessary with your compressor. As long as you get 6CFM at 40psi (should be easy as you get 5 at 90) then you are good to go. The kit from Jeff has everything you need.

In terms of the difference between airless and LVLP - of course there are pros and cons. The pros for LVLP are less overspray, cheaper on material, finer finish and easier to control the amount of material (which is great for vertical surfaces and corners such as your completed units). The con is they are slow compared to airless due to the output. Personally I would rather use an HVLP/LVLP on a vertical surface or corner than trying to use an airless. Of course you could try Air Assisted Airless which gives more of the benefits of HVLP but retains the speed. Bearing in mind you want control and a fine finish I would still recommend HVLP/LVLP. Here's a thread from Canadian Woodworking where the original poster had almost the same question as you. As can be seen, some prefer airless and some prefer HVLP/LVLP. Both will work but one is a lot easier to control (and, according to some, to clean).
https://www.forum.canadianwoodworkin...vlp-vs-airless

Here's another thread discussing best gun for spraying just about anything http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...highlight=lvlp

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for posting that last link, Andy. Saves me from having to type it all over again. Evan, welcome. The only difference between the Qualspray LVLP and HVLP guns is the HVLP gun can spray a wider fan. That's not a big deal, it will just take a little longer to cover wide panels with the LVLP gun. And like I said in the prior post, get the 3M PPS cup system. It allows you to spray at any angle, including upside down. Life is so much easier being able to reach inside a cabinet to spray the walls and underside of the top or shelves without having to tip it over. Of course it's easier to spray separate panels lying flat but that's often not practical, so to ability to spray at any angle is very helpful. Of course, a pressure pot would be even more convenient, but that's a good option if you need to spray a lot of square feet, or only spray one product and can leave the pot/gun full all the time. Assuming that's not your situation, the Qualspray gun with 3M PPS system is about the easiest thing to clean you can get; 10 minutes tops with any of the WB or alcohol based products I use. The only easier to clean option I can think of is the 3M Accuspray system. They look like a plastic toy, but people say they spray great.

Looking at your original post now more closely, I think you would be better off buying a larger compressor and getting the HVLP gun, since you need to finish a lot of square feet with many of your projects. The wider fan width will save you time and give you a slightly better finish. A 60 gallon compressor that can output 10 cfm at 40 psi will drive the Qualspray gun all day long. If money is tight and when isn't it, then go with the LVLP gun and your current compressor. You'll still be pleased.

John

[Wayne Lomman]

2 points.
First, if you are spraying multiple flat panels, you need racks on the walls inside your booth. Broom stick dowel or half inch steel rod is all you need. I have a photo at home I will try to post tonight. Racks give you space to work and get a decent amount of work in a batch.

Second, make yourself a turntable to set up your bits to spray. It means you always stand facing the air outlet/filter and you don't get overspray on already coated parts. The turntable needs a heavy base and a small top. Make up some blocks with carpet glued to one face so you don't damage the job and you keep the job off the sticky table.

Third (yeah I know, I said two...) if you are doing a lot of work with the same product, get a 10 litre pressure pot to go with a decent gun like the other guys suggested. It enables you to spray in tighter corners as you don't have a cup in the way. You only run them at 5-10psi fluid pressure ie just enough to deliver paint to the gun. They are cheap to buy. You don't clean up as often. Cheers

[Wayne Lomman]

DSC_0051a.jpgDSC_0050a.jpgDSC_0049a.jpg
Evan, here are some photos of the temporary spray booth I built for a recent project for doing flat panel work - 3 kitchens, 4 bathrooms, 5 built-in robes and a full library of floor to ceiling shelves. The racks accept small or large panels. Everything in this booth was done solo. For what its worth, I did everything separate panels apart from the library shelves which I painted with assembled carcases without backs. The backs were fitted after painting. I have used the same style of set up in permanent booths for constant production work as well. Cheers

[Evan Stewart]

Thanks you guys for the info. I am about to call over to Homestead finishing and see what they can put together for me. Based on the information I have read and from you guys I have certainly confirmed my belief that my current equipment and method is not the best way to go. Looking at Wayne's spray booth setup I can say right off the bat that I would never be able to have drying racks inside the same area as I am using my current gun. I do have multiple drying racks outside of the booth but that airless makes such a cloud of paint that even with decent ventilation it would be stuck all over anything that was drying. With my current setup I use the tip indicated for "fine finish" which is labeled at .010 inches to spray target pigmented lacquer. I generally lay 3-4 12"x92" panels for the sides in rows and have to move about as fast as possible down the row to avoid pooling. I generally setup 2 tables like this and that will be covered in less than 2 mins. By then I have sprayed about 1.5 Qt of material and there is significant overspray and a decent cloud that takes about 2 mins to clear. Anytime I have attempted to use this setup on a vertical panel the runs are horrible and I generally have to mask all the shelf fronts because the runoff from spraying the flats will require me to spend a huge amount of time sanding it off after everything is dry.

So basically with the setup I have been using we are talking about obviously priming the exposed sides of the boxes taping off dados for fixed shelves, both sides of shelves taping the exposed edge, both sides of individual pieces of face frames disassembled with all of the joint areas taped. On an average project for me which is 7-8 units 12"D x92"T x 32"W, I am only able to spray maybe 10% of the pieces at a time. Then the 4 days it takes the lacquer to cure which from experience if I try to assemble or package before that the finish will be damaged and it becomes a huge bottleneck for me. This doesn't even include the challenges of only being able to use hidden fasteners on everything and every piece needing to fit together perfectly as there is obviously very little repair or alteration that can be done after everything is finished.

I clearly should have spent a lot more time focusing on the finishing side of things a couple of years ago before I got myself into this rut. Anyway I really appreciate the input and I do feel confident to make a step toward a different method. I'm sure it will take practice, the system I have now as inefficient as it may be does give me a decent finish and it certainly took a lot of trail and error to get that.

[Wayne Lomman]

Getting rid of that hand held airless alone will solve many of your problems. Hand held airless are neither precise nor robust as you have found. Your productivity will increase and your material usage will decrease with the change. Regarding overspray, look at the airflow in your booth. My booth wasn't much different in size to yours and I could spray for half a day without overspray, without leaving the booth using an Iwata gravity gun and applying 2 pack polyurethane. You need directional airflow and spray towards your filter/air exit on a turntable. Worked for me for at least 20 years in different shops. It's why I built the temporary one this way. Cheers

[Andy Giddings]

Your temp booth looks good enough to be permanent, Wayne. Wish I had the space to do something similar (mine is a knock down affair made with rigid foam insulation panels).

[John TenEyck]

As Wayne said, just getting rid of the airless gun is going to be a huge step forward. Any of the pressure assisted LVLP/HVLP guns will allow you to spray anything from 20 seconds to 500 seconds #4 Ford cup with a 1.0, 1.3, and 1.5 mm N/N set, maybe a 1.8 or 2.0 if you want to spray really viscous snot. You will be amazed at the atomization you get compared to an airless, as well as how easy it is to dial the finish flow up and down to suit your needs. Your finish savings will quickly pay for the gun.

John

[Evan Stewart]

I talked to Jeff at homestead this afternoon and it was a very productive call. He seems like a very honest guy, didn't try to upsell me at all in fact he was pushing me to not buy a pressure pot until after I assessed my needs with the new system. I also watched a few videos and I can see a massive difference in what a decent HVLP gun does compared to an airless. I seriously could not even begin to see how anybody could spray small or narrow pieces like the edges of frames or doors considering the smallest tip on the lowest pressure that I could still get waterborne pigmented lacquer to go through still put out a 9-10" fan. Honestly I feel pretty stupid for not questioning this more earlier. I could have easily paid for the most expensive setup out there with the $ I spent on junk guns and wasted finish alone. I don't even want to think about the wasted time and headaches.

flemming library.jpg

1257.jpg
Just as a reference the top picture took me about 6 weeks to do the finish and the bottom picture probably 7. Construction was 4 weeks and 2-3 weeks respectively. My current project is about the same size and I have 2 more in line behind it so I'm sure you can see why I am desperate to change my methods. Looking back the reason I went with the airless to begin with is that was what the painter that did all of my detail work when I was doing renovations swore by. But just like I wouldn't try to build cabinets with my miter saw and portable table saw it clearly doesn't make sense for me to use the same level of painting equipment.

So beyond the gun setup, filter and regulator and the hose is there anything else I'm going to need to hook up to the compressor to get situated?

Currently I have a 12'x12' area that has a window that is built like the picture Wayne posted ( minus the awesome drying racks and table ) with a large box fan that is pulling air from the room through a filter and then exhausting into a concrete window well. Any suggestions on this?

[Andy Giddings]

Glad to hear that Jeff was helpful. As I said earlier, if you are buying the gun kit from Jeff it comes with everything you need as long as you're using your larger compressor. Your existing spray room sounds like its all set although you'll benefit significantly from the racks and the table that Wayne mentioned. Any turntable is better than none as it makes spraying a lot easier and, as long as you're always spraying toward the extraction fan, will significantly cut down your overspray and drift. I would recommend getting Jeff's book on Spraying as it has detailed instructions on technique as well as a DVD - it will speed up the learning process.

[Evan Stewart]

I ended up getting a fuji 4 stage after a lot of thought. The final decision was based on the fact that i did think it would be potentially valuable to have a portable setup considering i regularly get requests from customers for on site finishing jobs that i always turned down because they would have been impossible with my old gun.

I tried it out this afternoon and wow!! I wish i had made this change a long time ago. It was basically the opposite of the gun i have been using. Hardly any over spray in the air. At least 10 times the control compared to the airless. I can totally see now how you guys are able to spray boxes and vertical surfaces. I played with it for about 20 mins with primer and cardboard boxes and here's the best part only used 2/3 of the cup and clean up took maybe 10 mins tops. With the airless i would have blown through a quart of material, 30 mins of clean up and over spray everywhere.

It will definitely take some practice and i have to figure out the needle and cap sizes for the materials i use since the airless guns only use a couple different tips.

Thanks for the help everyone !

[Andy Giddings]

Good to hear, Evan. I take it you didn't go the 3M PPS route? It's easy to switch over in the future if you want to - the Fuji only requires an adapter and the H/O cup clips right on.