Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 39

Thread: Is it time i discard this customer? Would you?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Minnesota
    Posts
    305

    Is it time i discard this customer? Would you?

    HEY ALL:
    I'm in need of advice ‘n opinions. For ‘bout eight years, I’ve engraved assorted products for an organization, which resells these logo-enhanced items. Not wanting to risk losing their fairly steady business, I’ve always charged extremely low prices, plus I’ve (stupidly) never charged a fee for unpacking ‘n repacking, often, hundreds of items. (A task that’s always been an enjoyable project for my child with special needs.)
    Anyway, I recently engraved ‘bout 40 stainless tumblers for ‘em, using Cermark spray. Image appeared to be engraving fine. But, upon engraving ‘n washing ‘em all, I found that a very tiny, but important, portion of their logo failed to engrave properly - mysteriously rinsed off! - ruining those mugs! So, I voided my engraving charge for the complete batch, some of which were fine. Now, I find the guy wants me to pay his full item cost for those mugs that engraved poorly! - we’re talkin’ $184.00.


    Most, if not all, of my other customers understand I can’t be responsible for their items, if an engraving error occurs. (I have a sign posted stating this policy.) - have never experienced a problem! Can almost hear you saying: depends upon how badly I want’ a keep this customer, right? Most these years, I’ve direly needed their business; not so crucial nowadays. So, here’s my thinking at present: this organization, over time, has saved hundreds, maybe thousands, of dollars given my sacrificial pricing ‘n free handling; not to mention their not having to pay S&H to some place else. (Which he’s threatening to do, if I don’t pay ‘em.)


    Know it’d be far easier for him to write-off the loss, than me. (put ‘em on clearance, or give ‘em away?) Realizing, suddenly, I simply don’t like, nor trust, this customer! - ‘way he’s intimidated me all this time, insisting on unrealistically low pricing - never once appreciating my time ‘n efforts, even those times they’ve been in a bind. If I do pay ‘em their $184, no guarantee at all that I’ll retain their business. but, I do know it’ll gnaw at me forever!


    Sound like it’s time I discard this customer? I'm thinkin' his demand is kinda petty, given their size v.s. mine. What’d you think? How would you treat a situation like this? (if its ever happened to you?) Eager to hear ...

    Bill
    (Using Epilog 35W Mini 24)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Peters Creek, Alaska
    Posts
    412
    I've never been in the engraving business but I did run a service-based side business for few years. My experience was that setting your prices too low can (rightly or wrongly) send the signal that you undervalue your services. If customers think you don't value your work appropriately, chances are that at least some of them will think and act the same way. I started my business off at a competitive rate and sometimes discounted it to get the job. Those jobs rarely got me referrals or repeat business and I think those customers treated me differently. By the time I left the business, I charged more than my competitors, I booked more business than they did, I had a lot of repeat customers, and they generally treated me very well.

    If it were me, I would consider paying the $184 as a last ditch, good will gesture to keep the customer...then...the next time he calls to place an order, give him the new and improved pricing schedule. If he doesn't think enough of your work to stay, he'll make the decision for you.

    And how about adding an invoice line item for repacking? You could bank that for your expert repacker!
    Brett
    Peters Creek, Alaska

    Man is a tool-using animal. Nowhere do you find him without tools; without tools he is nothing, with tools he is all. — Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881)

  3. #3
    How bad is the 184 going to hurt you? I think given all you have done for them in the past and got no appreciation and if you think you really don't need their business anymore let them go.
    I don't get many paying jobs but when I do I price pretty low. BUT I make an invoice out with line item price's so they know they got a great deal. I just got a job to engrave 10 4x4" mirrors for one of our PGR members when I told him what I'd do it for he told me he thought it would be more. I told him he gets the PGR discount. When I made the invoice it was 58% more then what I actually charged him. Ponit being let your customer know how good you have been to him what a a great discount he's been givin all this time.
    If the Help and advice you received here was of any VALUE to you PLEASE! Become a Contributor
    Rabbit RL_XX_6040-60 watt Laser engraving/cutting machine Oh wait its a 3D Printer my bad LOL
    Lasercut 5.3
    CorelDraw X5

    10" Miter Saw with slide
    10" Table Saw
    8" bench mount 5 speed Drill Press
    Dremel, 3x21 Belt Sander


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Shohola, PA Pocono Mountains
    Posts
    1,336
    It's a Business and you have income and losses. For $184. I would pay it. IF they decide to get nasty and call in the Legal Buddies... The Loss in Time and Money will likely be much more... Like Barney Fife would say at a time like this.... Nip IT... Nip it in the Butt... Now....

    I would reevaluate your price structure too.

    I do my Business more for fun and I would pay it.

    Good Luck.

    AL
    1 Laser, 4 CarveWrights, Star 912 Rotary, CLTT, Sublimation, FC7000 Vinyl, 911 Signs, Street Signs, Tourist Products and more.
    Home of the Fire Department "Epoxy Dome Accountability Tag and Accountability Boards".

  5. #5
    I would give them the refund with a smile.
    At least 25% more next time.

  6. #6
    I always write extras on the invoice - then you have a choice whether to write delivery/packing/whatever as "no charge", but better is "$250"... or whatever then a bottom line "less donation $250"

    Later the choice is yours whether you offer the discount, but they can't expect more jobs for a cheap price.
    I especially do that if it's for an organisation.

    Don't be afraid to 'sack' a customer. As for the $184 remedy - maybe he's just being difficult - but it sounds like he is a cheap headache to remove at that prescription price.
    If he comes back with a subsequent job, you can build that $184 into the next undiscounted bill.
    Last edited by Bruce Page; 06-22-2017 at 11:27 PM.
    Best wishes,
    Ian



    ULS M-300, 55w made 2002 with rotary. Goldenlaser 130 watt, 1300x700 made 2011.
    Flat bed 2500x1300 150/90watt 2 tube laser, 2018 model.
    Esab router, 1989, 4.5 x 2.0 m, conv. to Tekcel, and modded a 2nd time.
    HP L260-60". Roland PNC-1410. Mimaki GC-130 SU.
    Screenprinting carousel 6x4 and 7x4 ft 1-arm bandit vac table.
    Corel Draw X3, Illy, Indesign & Photoshop CS2 & CS5, Enroute 4
    Pencil, paper, paintbrush, airbrush & dagger-liners & assorted other stuff.

  7. #7
    I think you own those cups. It was your mistake. Mess 1 up, it's written off to an error. Mess 40 up and you made the mistake of not checking after the first one. I'd say you have a few choices. Take the cups back and get to sanding. You can salvage stainless tumblers. It does take time. If you do pay the money then he needs to give you the cups. They belong to you. Then you can sand them and resell them at a later date.

    If it were me, I'd pay the $184, get the cups, apologize for the mistake, and I'd inform him of the new pricing shortly after it all cools down. Get your prices where they should have been all along and move forward.

    I don't think a sign on the wall gives you license to not be liable for your work. I wouldn't give work to someone who could ruin my inventory with no compensation.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Minnesota
    Posts
    305
    Thanks guys for your input! MORE DETAILS: two factors have dictated my (very low) engraving prices offered to this outfit. Many of the items they sell aren’t very expensive in the first place. (ex: a China, or Pakistanian, made knife for $9.95.) So, realistically, my engraving price has to be proportional to their retail price - regardless of the quantity I’m asked to engrave. (1 dozen or 100 of any given item) - in short, I can’t charge $5 to engrave a $10 item, right?)


    Second. their end-customers don’t seem to place a perceived/added value on their products being branded with their logo; meaning, it’s not like this outfit can charge 20% more for their product’s branding. All of which has worked out okay for me over time (extra business), ‘till this situation occurred. Guess I simply feel I’ve saved ‘em hundreds (thousands?) over time, and that, in this one instance of their items not engraving properly, they should write-off the loss of ‘few mugs - ‘cause, “yes”, $184 means ‘lot to me! (plus, it’s the principle of the thing! - his intimidating me, his threatening me with the loss of future business irks me! In reading ‘couple of your relies, I will plan on creating a new pricing structure, which very well may include pricing for unpacking/re-packing. - and, as Brett mentioned - at that point, my customer can decide how valuable my services are! BTW: Anybody have Buyer's experience? - can't a unpacking/repacking charge be written off by them to a separate expense category? - so as not to effect their retail price of their items?

    Catch you later, Bill
    (Using Epilog 35W Mini 24)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,947
    Blog Entries
    1
    If you can afford it, pay it. But going forward, next time he bring something in, or wants quote, add 50% to what you would have charged him in the past. And if you need line item for handling, thing such as removing labels, charge it. At about $25 per hour. Which this should be paid for min wage worker plus profit. this probably isn't that much overall, but it is time you spend. If he balks, you've had to adjust your rates. And this you might need to do anyway. If he walks, then he walks!
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
    Ray Fine RF-1390 Laser Ray Fine 20watt Fiber Laser
    SFX 50 Watt Fiber Laser
    PM2000, Delta BS, Delta sander, Powermatic 50 jointer,
    Powermatic 100-12 planer, Rockwell 15-126 radial drill press
    Rockwell 46-450 lathe, and 2 Walker Turner RA1100 radial saws
    Jet JWS18, bandsaw Carbide Create CNC, RIA 22TCM 1911s and others

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Iowa USA
    Posts
    4,438
    What Scott said, buy the cups, salvage what you can and adjust your rates. If he wants to go elsewhere, so be it.
    Retired Guy- Central Iowa.HVAC/R , Cloudray Galvo Fiber , -Windows 10

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    South Elgin, IL
    Posts
    217
    "in short, I can’t charge $5 to engrave a $10 item, right?"

    Actually, yes you can. You can charge $15.00 to engrave a $10.00 item if you want.
    Think about this for a minute.
    If you bring a beat up old car to a car dealership to get the brakes done, do you think they're going to charge you less because your car is only worth $800.00 ? Not a chance. They get their hourly rate - and most charge "book time" regardless if they finish your job in less time. If the book says a brake job for your model car should take 3 hours and they finish it in an hour and a half, guess what? You pay for 3 hours.

    My point is, being in a service business you decide what your hourly rate is based on all your costs of doing business plus a profit. You shouldn't adjust that just because someone brings in a cheap item to engrave.
    It takes a given amount of time regardless if the item is a wooden pencil or a $6000.00 weapon. You're in business to be paid for your time.

    If this is your main business then make it business like. If it's a hobby and you're just having fun and making a little money, then you have the ability to be more lenient.

    If the customer comes back with another order after this, then estimate the time it takes you for packing and unpacking. Build this cost into your quote before you start the job. As far as the 40 stainless tumbles goes, buy them from him for his cost and ask to see the invoice he paid to verify how much he paid. Then when things get slow, refinish them and engrave them as samples for your own advertising purposes. Or just write it off on your taxes as a loss - part of your cost of doing business.

    It's very easy to make incorrect assumptions about what a customer is willing or able to pay. And you can't model your business pricing based on those assumptions without considering your direct and indirect costs and how much profit you expect to make for your time working and for your future. I'm a perfect example of what not to do and my money situation today suffers because I rarely priced my work correctly in over 23 years as a sign shop owner.
    Materials Conversion Specialist
    I take perfectly good large pieces of stuff & turn them into smaller pieces having dubious value

    LASER: Trotec Speedy 300 30 Watt, CNC: Shopbot PRT, Vinyl Cutter: Summa Sign Pro T750
    Old School: a tool box full of brand new sign painting brushes from the 60's


  12. #12
    Ditto... buy the mugs and apologize again. When (if) the next order walks through the door from this client charge what you should really be charging no matter who the client is.
    $184 really is peanuts in the whole scheme of things. Integrity is gold!

  13. #13
    The answer is pretty simple.

    Replace the cups - your the captain of the ship, its your mistake.
    Stop using spray on Cermark - Buy bottle and dilute according to directions and apply with a foam brush, you'll save money over time.

    Run your customers graphic and test to ensure a sound mark early on with the first cup. View it in various lighting including outdoors to ensure overall darkness and sharpness of lines. Wipe the cup down well to ensure proper adhesion. Compare a screen image to the actual laser mark to ensure all components of the graphic are included. Spot check at regular intervals as you go.

    Deliver the product with a smile.

    Lastly, and this takes the most time regarding your pricing structure, Boil the Frog.

    Slowly and methodically increase your pricing just like the old boiling the frog parable.

    If the customer values you, they will stick with you. If not, its their decision to leave and not your decision to fire them.

    So what to do with the 184.00 worth of cups?

    Depending if they are salvageable, clean them up and offer them as thank you gifts for volume good customers with their name or initials.

    Or, simply use them as testers to ensure a sound start prior to your run so the issue will not happen again.


    -John
    Red Bolt Laser Engraving
    Houston, Texas

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Savusavu, Fiji
    Posts
    1,167
    "So, realistically, my engraving price has to be proportional to their retail price." NO!!!!!NO!!!!!NO!!!!! Realistically (as in you want to stay in business), you need to charge enough to cover your time, the cost of the machine time, the rest of your overhead (lights, rent, etc.) and maybe add a bit for profit. Otherwise, it is simply a donation to their organization. I think it best to make the donation part explicit.
    Longtai 460 with 100 watt EFR, mostly for fun. More power is good!! And a shop with enough wood working tools to make a lot of sawdust. Ex-owner of Shenhui 460-80 and engraving business with 45 watt Epilog Mini18.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Victoria, BC
    Posts
    2,367
    If it was me, I would pay him for the mugs, and part company. He clearly doesn't value your time, and that is one of your main products. I could see him coming back a and expecting a discount "cause of how the last time went." We ran into this regularly when I owned my networking company. When we doubled our rates (we were way undervaluing ourselves) people stopped being buttheads to us. And our business doubled. In a year.
    Paul

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •