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Thread: First Post and Sliding Table Saw Electronics Questions

  1. #1
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    First Post and Sliding Table Saw Electronics Questions

    Hello all- first post here! I’ve been doing a decent bit of reading here on the forum recently, and have been very impressed with the knowledge base I’ve found, thank you for all the great info so far!

    I apologize in advance as this may be a bit of a long post.

    I wanted to get some feedback on a sliding table saw purchase I’m in the process of making. About a month ago, I visited the Felder location in Delaware to look at and potentially order a new K940S. As a very brief background, I do a variety of custom projects and am a 1-2 man operation depending on the job, and really look forward to capability increase a slider would provide along with the added accuracy, repeatability, and safety. I had done quite a bit of research on different saws leading up to the Felder visit and had considered some other options such as SCM’s offerings or even possibly a used Altendorf or Martin. In the end I decided that I wanted to buy new in order to avoid the potential issues of a used machine, and the 940 really seemed to fit the bill. Accuracy and repeatability are important to me, so I had them work up a quote for the 940s with scoring, digital readout on the rip fence, digital readout for the main blade height/ tilt, power controls for the blade height/tilt, dado capability, and a few other options. The quote put the out the door cost at $17,500. After working up the quote, the salesman mentioned that he had a brand new Kappa 400 x-motion on sale for 50% off, and asked if I might be interested in that saw as the price would be close to the 940s, given the discount. The saw is fully loaded, w/automatic rip fence, digital crosscut stops, touch screen, independently controlled scoring blade, etc. Very nice, very impressive saw! List price 35k, discounted to $18,500. It was ordered for a customer who rejected it when it was delivered with a damaged sliding table, and they have been trying to get rid of it since. A replacement table is currently on order, and will be sold like new. A sweet setup right? Anyway, I put a down payment on it.

    My question revolves around all the automation. I love the features on the machine, and how precise, simple, and repeatable they make operation, but I am concerned about the longevity of the electronics in the computer control system. Some of the reading I’ve been doing suggests that these systems are susceptible to small voltage fluctuations or “dirty” power and that a failure of the electronics can be a very expensive repair. Also, some have suggested that obsolescence can be an issue, and I don’t want to find several years from now that I can’t even fix the thing if it breaks! After all, I’m not running a production environment- I am a relatively small operation, and this is a fairly big investment for me as it is. I would hope to be still using the machine 15 years from now. Essentially, I don’t want this to become a money pit, and I am beginning to fear that potential. I could be completely off base. Does anyone have any experience that could speak to these concerns? When I paid the down payment, the guys at Felder were kind enough to offer to change my order back to the 940s if I changed my mind on the Kappa before I took delivery, so that option is still on the table. I am also thinking that the more simplistic electronics on the 940s (simple digital readouts with knobs/buttons to raise or tilt the blade, no touchscreen or automatic fence) may be less susceptible to issues- is that an accurate assessment?

    Hoping to make an informed decision, any insights would be much appreciated!

    Thanks
    Bryan

    The Kappa 400 in question:
    Photo Jun 06, 3 41 33 PM.jpg

  2. #2
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    I would add a separate surge oppressor for the electronics and a load reactor from the motor supply. In the metal shop world it is not uncommon to rip out all the electronics and retrofit a newer version with better capabilities. Even replacing the servos.
    Do fancy saws and jointers even use servos to set adjustments or are they manual control with readouts for the operator.
    Bill D.
    Last edited by Bill Dufour; 06-24-2017 at 2:28 PM.

  3. #3
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    Sweet saw! I presume you are using grid-supplied three phase power. I doubt there will be issues with that. Personally, I'd post this question to the Felder Owners Group.

  4. #4
    Join the Yahoo Felder Owner Group

    Amazing deal! A few folks over there have the Kappa 400, they love it. They all have Phase Perfect to power the saw.

    David Best has the Kappa 400, he can answer any question you have.

    James
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 06-25-2017 at 11:37 AM.

  5. #5
    In the picture, why the sliding table is so short? For Kappa 400, I would want a 10 foot sliding table.

  6. #6
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    Everyone, thank you for the replies so far.

    Bill, I understand what you are saying about ripping out and replacing all the electronics. I'm sure this could be done in the future, but at what cost? The automatic rip fence alone is a $5000 option (getting this from a different quote as the x-motion comes standard with it), not to mention the touch screen, etc, so this is the situation I'd like to avoid, or at the very least prolong as long as possible. If this was something I had to do in 15 or 20 years time, it may make sense, but if I had to do it in 5-10? The blade height and tilt, scoring blade y and x axis, and the rip fence are all automatic, the crosscut stops and crosscut angle readouts and length compensation are manual adjust with digital readout. Really a pretty cool setup.

    Mike, thank you, yes it is! I will be moving into a new shop which should have 3 phase service, otherwise it will run off a phase perfect. I'll check out the Felder owner's group.

    James, thank you, I believe it is a good deal as well. In my mind, I'd like to believe I could sell it if I ran into issues, and recoup most of my money, but I don't have any hard figures to back that assessment up. You are correct about the short table. The saw actually comes with the 10.5' sliding table, and that is what is on order. This one is just on there temporary so they could demonstrate the saw. As you and Mike suggested, I will go check out the Felder owner's group.

    Bryan

  7. #7
    Bryan, this is just my 2-cents. Feel free to accept or reject as you like: In your situation, I would think long and hard about whether you actually need programmability on this machine or whether you are just in love with a sexy looking slider and a magical discount. Having sold both Felder (including a couple of Kappa 450's back in the day) as well as tons of SCM sliders, this has been my experience with machines like those:

    1.) It's not a matter of "if " they will go down, but "when". And invariably this happens on a Friday afternoon.

    2.) Knowing point #1, what level of priority will you be in the service chain (the problems a machine like this has will always be electrical; you more than likely will not be able to fix it yourself and probably won't be able to have a non-mfr. tech fix it either. It will probably require multiple tech visits) when a problem does come up. I am mentioning this because service is the biggest achilles heel of any of these manaufacturers. It is easy for a sales guy to make all these promises and awesome discounts to close a deal but on Monday morning, when you call the headquarters because your machine went down on Friday and their tech has a callback list of several big shops with CNC's + widebelts + banders that need support, where do you think you will fall on the priority list with a 1-machine shop that was sold one Classical machine with a huge discount to get it out the door? You CANNOT IMAGINE how many times I saw that happen.

    3.) It's a different story if have a shop full of their machines and happen to be within a reasonable driving distance of your dealership. The shop I work at has probably a hundred K $$$ worth of machines. For example, we had a big widebelt (brand new, by the way) go down recently. Our dealership is about 3 hrs. away and we could send jobs to the smaller widebelt until the tech arrived (which again was multiple visits. First, to identlify the issue and get the part ordered. Then, another trip to come back and install it). But, we spend a ton of money with them and have backup machines that can handle some of the load when there's an issue. Will you have a backup saw?

    4.) On a more personal note as a sales guy who was customer-focused, the fact that a brand-new machine is apparently being sold for 50% off would raise a ton of red flags for me. What would you think if your auto dealer had a brand new car for 50% off? Could you bid a cabinet job for 50% off and still make any money? I'm not sayin that the price isn't what's advertised but I would ask a LOT of questions about a deal like that.

    OP, if you want a Felder, I would suggest one of the K900's with as little programmability as possible. Electric rise and fall is fine as are digital readouts (that's only a sensor to fix, not a controller). I hear your interest in speeding up the work flow and repeatability. Assuming you have not owned a slider before, just having one will accomplish most of that. I think a K900 with digital readouts would be great. Felder's EGL gauge is a really nice add-on. Or, you could save yourself a ton of money and buy an all manual K900, see how you like it, then get a Tigerstop later if you still feel the need for it. Point being that I would have a real honest conversation with myself about whether I was in love with the deal or whether I was really would get a benefit in the end. Best of luck with it all,

    Erik

  8. #8
    Eric makes some very good points. You have to make a judgment whether the benefits of electronic everything outweigh the risks of being without a saw when the widgets fail. If you have been following the forum for a while then you will have been exposed to various points of view on this topic. I personally tend toward the manual operation with digital readouts position, but that's just me. Martin USA seems to have a good reputation for keeping electronic parts on the shelf and supporting older machines (up to a point). Will Felder do as well? It might be a good idea to figure out what parts are critical and how hard they are to get.

  9. #9
    Additionally I would check your power supply at the moment. Our shop is in a rural area and we have quite a bit of issue with over-voltage as the utility is trying to over feed old/outdated lines. To make sure the house at the dead end of a 15 mile run is getting a reasonable amount of voltage they are over-freeding at the front end. That means our shop, located right on the main drag in town, see's 262 Volts (single phase) most of the time. The utility has scammed the PSC into a 10%+/- allowance. This means they are within speck on as much as 264vac coming into a 240v service. This wreaked havoc with the controllers on our cnc. Luckily our slider is non-electronic. In our situation the only option is a buck and boost transformer on the critical equipment which is far from cheap.

    Eric's comments are spot on especially the Friday afternoon. I can tell you how many times we have mechanical problems on a weekend or late evening run. It never fails. I have long dreamed of one of those fully blinged out sliders but having worked with the cnc for a long while now Im not sure I wouldnt rather have an old school analog. The only thing to go wrong is a motor or switch failure or perhaps the remotes on the slider which can be jumpered out to keep you in production.

  10. #10
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    Mark, many thanks for sharing your experiences, this is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for, I will certainly take your comments into consideration.

    Erik, thank you very much for the thought out and comprehensive reply. You bring up many valid points- it is especially good hearing the perspective of someone who has sold saws. As far as service is concerned, I hear you. One of the reasons I was drawn to Felder is dealer proximity. I neglected to mention in my initial post that I am from Dallas originally and will be moving back there in a few years, putting me right next door (well just about) to the Felder branch there. I think that is a huge benefit that is hard to overlook. You asked about weather I would have another saw to work with in the event I had electrical issues. I do not plan to sell my cabinet saw, so it could be brought out if need be. But you do raise a good point- the saw is down hard if that control unit fails, and that is a frustrating concept, given how many of the systems are tied together. So I guess my concern is related more to cost and access to components rather than down time. I asked the Felder salesman what parts availability would look like 10 or 15 years from now if the control system took a crap, and I wasn't able to get a definitive answer. The thought of owning a giant grey/ blue unsellable boat anchor concerns me. Possibly more than anything else- and I suspect this is a common theme with other manufactures as well. In your experience, how did you respond to this issue?

    Assuming I go the 940 route, you mention that the power up/ down/ tilt functions would be fine- I assume that the much simpler electronics in those are less sensitive/ more robust and less apt to failure? The ability to quickly set dado depth or precisely cut a tenon sure would be awesome.

    Thanks for your time,
    Bryan
    Last edited by Bryan Wallace; 06-26-2017 at 5:39 AM. Reason: Formatting

  11. #11
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    Brian, I would share Erik's stated concerns and would stick to the more basic electronic "helpers" rather than a fully automated machine for the stated reasons. My slider is completely manual in operation...I guess I could appreciate an automated tilt feature. And even a totally manual Euro machine has a lot of electronics/electrical "under the hood"...including some circuit breakers.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Wallace View Post
    ...what parts availability would look like 10 or 15 years from now if the control system took a crap... In your experience, how did you respond to this issue? ...
    If it's an electronic machine, probably obsolete within five years and 100% it will be obsolete within 10 years. Yes, mechanical parts might be available but as far the electronics and firmware, forget it. Just look how fast CNC's are evolving. Smaller, cheaper, better features every year. Just like cell phones. All that can go wrong with Jim's machine is a switch or motors/capacitors because it's so basically mechanical. With electronic machines, it's just like automobiles or cell phones. They are depending on the fact that it's "newer and better" to attract buyers and with so much energy focused on that, there is less concern for the long run. In other words, the mfr. is hedging a bet that since you were attracted by the technology in the first place, you will continue to want to upgrade each time a new model comes out. I honestly cannot remember what an SCMI Invincible shaper (their electronic hot rod) looked like in 2012. Planned obsolescence = future sales. Remember that regardless of who you are talking to to (including SCM), we're all in this to make money and you don't make any money on an electronic machine that's discounted 50% and designed to last 15+ years. You need to folks to need a new machine in a few years. I hope this all makes sense.

    Erik

  13. #13
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    Jim and Erik,

    I share your concerns, and will spend some time giving this a good think over. I think you have made many excellent points that I think are difficult to ignore. Planned obsolescence is a notion I can certainly understand, and from a business perspective, I know it makes a lot of sense. At the small scale of my operation, however, I don't want to be stuck on the wrong side of it!

    Bryan

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Wallace View Post
    ...At the small scale of my operation, however, I don't want to be stuck on the wrong side of it!...
    Bryan, if that is the case then you need to be looking at a CNC machine, not a computurized sliding table saw. If you're moving to Dallas in a few years, why don't you get a more basic machine now, figure out how you REALLY want it to be optioned out, then sell it when you move and buy a model from Felder that has all the things you want once you get there? Just some food for thought.

    Erik

  15. #15
    Having both a slider and a CNC I cant say I would be happy to have one without the other given a broad scope of shop work. There are things the slider can do much much faster than ever possible on the CNC with toolpathing, fixturing, work holding, and so on. In my opinion a shop with a slider that is left wide open for all shop needs, a flim flam cabinet saw to be dedicated for odd dado/rebate/etc work, and a CNC to do what its best at, is a great combo if your market can support you having that array of equipment. Without a dedicated programmer who can setup a CNC operation in seconds or minutes, the CNC is a slug for odd, one of-ish, type work. The time it takes to draw, prep, hold, and complete the work, is often times far more than just cranking the piece out old-school.

    That said, when you have a bunch of repetition or work that is easy to push to the CNC its great as its chunking away while you are doing other profitable work. Its a hard balance in a shop that has a wide variety of work coming through the door.

    I still feel our slider is probably the most valuable machine in the shop other than the wide sander but the CNC doesnt really replace the need for any of those other machines on an average job.

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