Full size rip tpi?

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all,

Recently acquired a disston #7. It's 8 tpi and filed crosscut. I already have a full size d8 crosscut and a smaller panel d8 xcut, along with a atkins and a few others. The only rip saws I have now are a 16" miter converted tenon and a panel d8 converted rip(9 or 10tpi). I was thinking the full size 7 might be a good canidate to make a lower tpi rip out of. I found someone local to me who says they have the equipment to punch new teeth and will do it for a fair price.

My question is what is a good tpi for a full size rip saw? I don't have any projects for it yet and so far most of my work has been in softwoods, I want it to be general use if that makes sense. I just want it to process stock fast. The panel d8 I filed rip works good for tenon cheeks but anything larger and it seems hopeless. I did a little bit or research and maybe 5tpi would be good? Any input appreciated

Thanks,
Michael

[lowell holmes]

I have a rip saw at 10 tpi. It does a good job. You might check what Paul Sellers has to say about it. When I took classes at Homestead Heritage (30+ years ago) He was there. All of the saws were sharpened rip.

I have re-toothed saws my self by filing the tooth line smooth, taping a paper template to the side of the saw plate.
I then bought a red highlighter at the office supply store and marked the smooth tooth line. I then filed one or two strokes at each stroke.
The next step is to progressively deepen the teeth to final depth. I file each tooth 3 or 4 strokes and repeat the process until the teeth are shaped.
You have to set the rake of the teeth during this step.

Also, you can refile a cross cut saw to rip.

[Archie England]

Hi all,

My question is what is a good tpi for a full size rip saw? ... I did a little bit or research and maybe 5tpi would be good? Any input appreciated

Thanks,
Michael

Well, that's certainly a preference call.

I settled on 5TPI but still think 4 1/2 might be better for some of my bigger stock cuts. I'd love to find someone with even a 4 TPI and try it out. What I do know (about my preferences) is this, my 6 TPI rip saw does not get much use unless I'm sawing thin stock and for a more refined edge. But I typically clean all cut lines with hand planes, so that's become less of an issue.


Addendum: Check out the Stumpy Nubs video on handsaws (which he calls "panel" saws). He gives the math formula on how many teeth should be in the wood for both xcut and rip. It was very interesting and helped me to understand several aspects of TPI that I was ignorant of.

[Todd Stock]

5-1/2 ppi is pretty common on full sized Disston rips (both my thumb hole D8's are 5-1/2 point...nice cutting saws), and it feels comfortable to me in most woods, but I have a nice Sorby at 8 ppi that is a quick cutting saw in thinner stock. I'd want a coarse pitch for 6/4 or thicker, so stock thickness might be a consideration re: how you want it toothed (not that I spend much time in the guitar shop ripping 8/4 white oak!).

[Michael J Evans]

I have a rip saw at 10 tpi. It does a good job. You might check what Paul Sellers has to say about it. When I took classes at Homestead Heritage (30+ years ago) He was there. All of the saws were sharpened rip.

I have re-toothed saws my self by filing the tooth line smooth, taping a paper template to the side of the saw plate.
I then bought a red highlighter at the office supply store and marked the smooth tooth line. I then filed one or two strokes at each stroke.
The next step is to progressively deepen the teeth to final depth. I file each tooth 3 or 4 strokes and repeat the process until the teeth are shaped.
You have to set the rake of the teeth during this step.

Also, you can refile a cross cut saw to rip.

Hi lowell.
Thanks for the info. I've watched almost all Paul's videos and have converted my 2 saws that are rip from crosscut. Lately time has been an issue for me and the guy I found will punch new teeth for $12 which is tempting even if I had unlimited time.

[Pete Taran]

Michael,

I you ask me, 4.5 or 5 ppi is a good choice. I'd pick 4.5 if I was working primarily in softwoods, or 5 if soft and hardwoods were on the ripping menu. I filed and sold a 3 1/2 point rip last year and it was amazing. Every full stroke moved the saw about an inch in OAK. Surprised there weren't more of them sold. You have to know your way around saws to get the cut started though.

[steven c newman]

Had a 5-1/2 and a couple 6 ppi saws.. Finer toothed ones cut too slow for me.

[lowell holmes]

I have a 5-1/2 ppi rip saw. I seldom use it. I just prefer the finer tooth. If the finer tooth saw is sharp and properly set it does a good job.
If I was ripping a 2X12 I would use the 5 1/2. You can have both you know. Old handsaws are cheap, and if you know how to sharpen,
You can have both. I just like the feel of my 8 point saw.

[Michael J Evans]

Archie,todd,Pete
Thanks for the comments.

Let me ask you guy are there any real disadvantages to going lower tpi if the guy has the equip to do 4 or 4.5? I assume the cuts more ragged and may need cleaned up?

To be honest, if I have to rip a ton of stock I'll probably bust out the table saw and go that route, but it would be nice to have a nice rip saw for those cuts that are 1 off, where I don't wanna pull out the table saw and extension cords.
I've found with crosscuts it'a usually quicker to make those cut with a hand saw and more pleasant and would like to round out the stable.

I still have 4 or 5 more back

[Michael J Evans]

Don't know why it cut my message off but.

I still have 4 or 5 more handsaws waiting for me to do something with so I'm sure I'll end up with a something like 7 point rip. I just figured I already have a finer tooth rip and that a course rip would have me covered on both ends of the spectrum.

[Archie England]

I prefer my 3/4" band saw rip over my TS rip--every day! But, I'm moving away from power tools to almost exclusive use of hand tools. Having a quality rip saw is necessary, then. I'm far more proficient at filing cross cut than rip, though filing rip is so easy (that I somehow stink at doing it). IMO, it's the rake (aggressive vs passive) that makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE in the cut. Aggressive rakes start harder, grab more often, and can leave very proud exit wounds; while passive rake is much easier in all three categories--at the expense of speed. And, speed is the issue; that's why I'm looking at going lower than 5 TPI. For me, the higher TPI cut great--just slower. For one of cuts that may do, but for numerous cuts, it s*cks. Don't forget the 4x solution, too: green vs dry and hard woods vs soft woods. That could mean the need for four saws, one for each of the wood types. Well, that's certainly my justification for having a few too many.

One tip I picked up from a Mike Siemsen video: add fleam to the front end and/or back end of your rip saw for starting cuts. WOW! That was revelatory to me. I would love to hear from those who've done this and get some feedback.

Thanks

[Pete Taran]

Michael,

He has the equipment. I'm sure he uses the same rotary punch affair all saw doctors use. In a rough rip saw, bigger teeth are better in my opinion. The trick to a nice cutting ripsaw is to relax the rake from 0 to like 6-8 degrees. This makes it a LOT smoother cutting and easier to start. Zero rake is very aggressive, but again, you have to be a pro sawyer to appreciate it and drive it in the cut. To an untrained hand, it will constantly hang and perhaps kink the saw. Disston came to the same realization and put an 8 degree rake on all their rips saws early in the 20th century.

The issue with getting lower teeth punched is the coarser the tooth, the more metal that must be removed. Those retoothers aren't unlimited in their ability to remove waste, so when you go too coarse, sometimes it gets hung up and ruins the saw. I typically don't go below 4 1/2 ppi and then don't cut the whole tooth. It's just too hard to punch that big a piece of steel and have it work perfectly. I'd rather punch 2/3 of the tooth and file the rest in. The real bummer is that when you are cutting teeth that big, if you screw it up you are losing 1/2" of blade height with each failed attempt.

[Archie England]

Pete,

Thanks so much for addressing this topic.

On the subject of cutting teeth new, I've only done it from a blank plate once--all by hand without any stamping. Kind of a tough memory, though the saw worked mostly just fine. Lots of work for just filing by hand, and I had a tough time following my paper guide.

[Michael J Evans]

Don't forget the 4x solution, too: green vs dry and hard woods vs soft woods. That could mean the need for four saws, one for each of the wood types. Well, that's certainly my justification for having a few too many.

Thanks

I'm just beginning and it's already getting bad, just about everytime I've come across a older <1920s ish saw for under $10 I've picked it up. Panel and full size saws come up all the time, still having a hard time finding those old backsaws.

Still trying to figure out when I'm gonna get time to sharpen them all.

[Michael J Evans]

Thanks Pete,

That clears up a few things for me, and simultaneously makes me nervous trying out one of my older saws with the unknown service. May bring a older junker craftsman in for a test run.