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Thread: Soft New Irwin Chisel

  1. #46
    I've done a lot of research for a newbie, trying to understand chisels, and how to choose them.
    I have discovered along the way that many of the cheap chisels are made with Chrome Vanadium, which as I understand it can get very hard compared to something like simple carbon steel. Yet from my research, I see that CV doesn't hold an edge near as well as good, well tempered carbon steel. So it stands to reason, at least in my small head, that hardness is only one factor in edge retention/sharpness.
    I have no clue what metal/alloy the Irwins are manufactured from, but in the case of "the scratch test", shouldn't some kind of measure be taken to ensure that the steels used are at least similar in composition?
    Please keep well in mind that I am not responding to the OP's method of testing, it is just that the conversation brought this line of thought into my head. And please be gentle to the newbie; I realize that there is way more I don't know than that which I do.
    I have settled on the fact that I prefer a bit softer steel, one easier to sharpen quickly. I keep sharpening media with me, and touch up as often as necessary. Takes very little time, and I'm back to work again.

  2. #47
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    I miss my Versitron hardness tester. The best made. But,there asre various means by which hardness can be checked. If you have enough experience you can develop a "feel" for checking things with a good,fine cut file.

    I mentioned before that I bought a set of pre war Addis carving tools. They were SO HARD they would not take a sharp edge! I had to draw their temper down to a blue color. This was in my 18th. C. Instrument shop in the museum. I laid the offending carving tools on the top of my hot side bending iron(Guitar sides mostly). That cured the problem. And,was all I had at the time.

    It is a FACT that PLAIN CARBON STEEL will take a sharper edge than any other steel. But then,there are so many other things like,carbon content(Some of these cheap chisels have only enough carbon in them -.40-.50%-they'll barely harden. Sears used to sell CRAFTSMAN chisels made in Holland that were like that. They probably decided that your average home fixup was going to use them for prying off paint can lids!! And,that MIGHT BE TRUE. Now,there is a growing tide of real craftsmen who need real tools. The presence of high dollar plane,saw,and chisel offerings from high end makers these days proves that.

    Irwin has gone to the dumps. And,that is not just snobbish gossip. Their new stuff is nothing like my NOS set of HSS Irwin drill bits. They are as good as any. I drill tool steel with them all the time,like a manly man,not a girly man !

    I like their plastic squeeze grip clamps. I have about 3 dozen of their 6" and 12" opening clamps. WHY do I like them? They are LIGHT WEIGHT. A guitar in a mold,with 24 clamps holding the top or back on gets too heavy to turn over,with the older type wooden cam clamps with steel rod and 10" wooden jaws. THOSE make the whole guitar so WIDE,I had to turn it over at ARM'S LENGTH. But,I'm older now! And I even made those cam clamps myself.
    Last edited by george wilson; 06-29-2017 at 6:35 AM.

  3. #48
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    I don't think I actually proclaimed anything. In fact, I proclaim that I didn't.
    Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.

    I was socially distant before it was cool.

    A little authority corrupts a lot.

  4. #49
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    I agree that the bucks are not that bad for an easily obtainable chisel. I purchased a 3/8 buck bros a few years ago and it has served me well. I keep it in a toolbox of tools I use away from home....

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Those Buck chisels are actually pretty good for the money, and US-made as well. I have a set that I keep around as utility chisels and they sharpen up remarkably well. They come with decently flat backs, that tend to be ever so slightly concave if anything. My Narex chisels were a lot more hassle to prepare (due to a few of them having convex backs) than were those Bucks.

    For all of the noise about Aldi I think that the Bucks are the best value in a new chisel that most of us can actually go to a nearby store and buy.



    Sounds reasonable to me.

  5. #50
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    Irwin should hire the OP. He can then take his pocket knife to work and provide the quality control he thinks they need.

    Just a note, harder is not always better as we all know. Too hard and the edge fractures. So he uses a KNIFE which has a very different purpose to judge a chisel. I have never seen anyone chop mortises with a knife. The point being, the OP is using some arbitrary test to bad mouth a very different product.

  6. #51
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    It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.
    Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.

    I was socially distant before it was cool.

    A little authority corrupts a lot.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.
    Yes, sadly it is almost the norm in today's world.

    In another thread my comment about an obvious difference between two items turned in to me bad mouthing the folks who are trying to recreate a treasure from the past.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    It's amazing, the emotion an honest post full of disclaimers can elicit.
    To be clear, in the very first post there were no disclaimers whatsoever.

    Note : you didn't mention your results with the knife blade scratch test on the Buck chisel. How did that work out for you?

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    Go re-read the original post, then come back and edit your comment accordingly.

    .
    Amen. I posted in the past two diffo things that folks got vociferously into. Couple years ago. I kept saying "Re-read my post.....please respond to my exact situation....not what you want it to be..."

    The two principle bashers never did.

    How disappointing. I fact, part of why I have been largely absent from here the last couple of years.

    (This is strictly an editorial comment-I am not engaging in the current chisel discussion.)
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  10. #55
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    I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

    The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.

    I'm sending the Irwin back. Am I being unreasonable? Seems to me that a good chisel should be nice and hard. I suppose the Irwin will take an edge quickly, but it will also lose an edge quickly.
    At least a few people thought my post was useful enough to justify their participation, but I'm starting to feel like I should never say anything here without a team of NASA engineers and a peer-reviewed paper to back me up. I'm a lawyer. Maybe I should write formal memoranda that meet Blue Book standards instead of informal forum posts.

    I don't recall whether I tried to scratch the Buck chisel with a knife. The chisel was several years old, and Home Depot was not likely to take it back, so it didn't occur to me to test it.

    I just gave it a whack, and I didn't see any scratches. Mind you, I am drawing NO CONCLUSIONS. Maybe the chisel's steel is just as good as the knife's steel. Maybe it's much, much worse. Maybe it's not even steel. Maybe there is no chisel. Maybe I hallucinated the entire thing. I claim nothing! If it seems like I'm claiming anything, I retract it.
    Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.

    I was socially distant before it was cool.

    A little authority corrupts a lot.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

    The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.



    At least a few people thought my post was useful enough to justify their participation, but I'm starting to feel like I should never say anything here without a team of NASA engineers and a peer-reviewed paper to back me up. I'm a lawyer. Maybe I should write formal memoranda that meet Blue Book standards instead of informal forum posts.

    I don't recall whether I tried to scratch the Buck chisel with a knife. The chisel was several years old, and Home Depot was not likely to take it back, so it didn't occur to me to test it.

    I just gave it a whack, and I didn't see any scratches. Mind you, I am drawing NO CONCLUSIONS. Maybe the chisel's steel is just as good as the knife's steel. Maybe it's much, much worse. Maybe it's not even steel. Maybe there is no chisel. Maybe I hallucinated the entire thing. I claim nothing! If it seems like I'm claiming anything, I retract it.

    Formal papers? Engineers? Excellent.

    Well, I guess part of my problem (back when) was taking the feedback too personally or seriously.....as a JD, you know that logical thinking can be rather absent from an otherwise fact-filled mind.

    Likewise, when all the drama cranked in around folks response to me earlier-I tried to grin and bear it. I rationalized-maybe not all folks responding (at that time) were able to follow my writing; perhaps a deficit in abstract thinking?

    Maybe next time, go w an EXPLICIT disclaimer. Something simple, and clear.

    I do appreciate your point that nothing is real....it's all just waves of light emanating from what is a substance that is 99.99999% empty space.
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  12. #57
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    I humbly apologize. Your view is the better one, and I retract my ridiculous assertions.
    Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.

    I was socially distant before it was cool.

    A little authority corrupts a lot.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    I humbly apologize. Your view is the better one, and I retract my ridiculous assertions.
    Excellent, I shall remember that one for my beautiful wife!
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve H Graham View Post
    I feel like I am dodging a nit comb.

    The first post contained an IMPLICIT disclaimer, and the ensuing posts made it very clear I was not pretending to be an expert.
    You were fine IMO. I didn't read your post as being worded in a way that implied expertise (the trap I tend to fall into :-) or advising anybody else about what they should do. You simply stated what you'd done, and asked opinions.

    To be honest it just makes me sad to see highly knowledgeable and skilled people who could be terrific assets to the forum and to the hobby in general, but who choose to spend their cycles belittling others.

    One other blunt remark: This is sort of an SMC rite of passage. You should see some of my early threads (though as noted above I caused more of my own grief than you did here).
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 06-28-2017 at 6:04 PM.

  15. #60
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    It's funny how everyone gets all with the better than, holier than thou attitude all of a sudden. Like a bunch of old ladies gossiping about their neighbors.

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