Soft New Irwin Chisel

[Patrick Chase]

I was at Home Depot today buying stuff I did not need, and I decided to fill out my collection of world-renowned Buck Bros. chisels with a 5/8". I had no problems sharpening it. The factory left an edge that was a little odd, so it took me a while, but the steel itself cut just fine on diamond stones.

Basically *everything* cuts fine on diamond stones, including solid carbide. When people complain about "hard to sharpen" they usually mean stuff that doesn't so well on Arkansas stones or maybe AlOx. It's hard to specify a threshold in terms of overall hardness since individual carbide size and hardness also plays into that, but suffice it to say that the Bucks are easy to sharpen.

I should knock the plastic handles off of these, make fancy wooden ones, and stamp a snooty-sounding name on them. Maybe Neiman-Marcus.

You're probably joking, but in case not: You can't do that. The bucks don't have a proper tang, just a ribbed shaft that sticks up into the molded-on plastic handle.

With that said, LV beat you to it.

[Jim Koepke]

I actually quite liked my cheap Irwins for a while when I was just getting going. It was fairly easy to get them sharp enough to do basic work on sandpaper and they hold up alright enough when paring with them, something I had significant trouble with until I got a better sharpening setup. I don't care for them at all when it comes to any kind of chopping however.

Howdy Daniel and welcome to the Creek.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

This wouldn't be such a surprise to me if people didn't say such nasty things about Buck Bros. chisels.

On of my most used sets of chisels are Buck Bros. socket chisels. I have some with plastic handles, but prefer wood. That doesn't seem such a nasty thing to say.

Some folks like plastic handles.

I have occasionally thought of the current set of Buck Bros. chisels at Craftsman Studios:

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/Buck-...07301-base.htm

But I have pretty much accumulated a good set of the socket chisels.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

I had a weird thing happen on a forum about eight years ago. I had been carving white oak full time for four months, all my body could take. Then I read on a forum that a certain brand of carving tool was so soft it could only be used on pine. It was the brand I use. The weird thing was that the person disparaging this brand had never even tried them, let alone learned to use them.

Now we have a fellow testing chisels by scratching. I tried it last night myself. Using a Marples blue chip, which I abandoned about five years ago in favor of an 1830 chisel, I was able to scratch a Butcher chisel from about 1880. This butcher chisel I had used a few weeks ago to chop seven feet worth of end grain in white oak, after which it still cut white pine end grain rather well. I am skeptical enough that someone could test a chisel without the familiarity that comes with regular use; here we have people wanting to test without use.

[Archie England]

I have occasionally thought of the current set of Buck Bros. chisels at Craftsman Studios:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/Buck-...07301-base.htm

Anyone here use these? Could you tell how well you like their performance? Thanks

[Rick Malakoff]

Archie, I have looked at them many times and still can't justify buying another set. But the next time I place an order I'll add a 3/8 and try it out, that one got lost in my many moves.
Rick

[Steve H Graham]

Now we have a fellow testing chisels by scratching. I tried it last night myself. Using a Marples blue chip, which I abandoned about five years ago in favor of an 1830 chisel, I was able to scratch a Butcher chisel from about 1880. This butcher chisel I had used a few weeks ago to chop seven feet worth of end grain in white oak, after which it still cut white pine end grain rather well. I am skeptical enough that someone could test a chisel without the familiarity that comes with regular use; here we have people wanting to test without use.

Something to think about: what is my motivation for keeping and testing a chisel I know to be softer than a cheaper Home Depot chisel? You can't use a chisel unless you want to keep it, and I didn't feel like paying for it just so I could be a product tester. I've had plenty of experience with soft knives and tools, and it was all BAD, so I run from them. I try to learn from my mistakes instead of reliving them over and over. My only bad experience with overly hard steel was the purchase of an expensive, overrated Shun knife, which chipped easily. Now I use knives that aren't quite as hard, because I can sharpen one in five seconds and put it in the dishwasher later. I can't sharpen a chisel in five seconds.

I thought the idea that harder steel keeps its edge longer was pretty well settled. Is there evidence out there that soft steel can actually stay sharp longer? Is there a difference between hardness and resistance to dulling?

Maybe soft Irwin chisels are great, and they have some special quality that makes soft steel hold an edge, but I can get harder Narex chisels for similar money, and Narex has a better reputation.

I'm not surprised that a 19th-century chisel would be soft. It would be a sad thing if metallurgy had not improved in 137 years.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Howdy Daniel and welcome to the Creek.

+1, welcome Daniel!

[Kees Heiden]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

[Patrick Chase]

Something to think about: what is my motivation for keeping and testing a chisel I know to be softer than a cheaper Home Depot chisel? You can't use a chisel unless you want to keep it, and I didn't feel like paying for it just so I could be a product tester. I've had plenty of experience with soft knives and tools, and it was all BAD, so I run from them. I try to learn from my mistakes instead of reliving them over and over. My only bad experience with overly hard steel was the purchase of an expensive, overrated Shun knife, which chipped easily. Now I use knives that aren't quite as hard, because I can sharpen one in five seconds and put it in the dishwasher later. I can't sharpen a chisel in five seconds.

I thought the idea that harder steel keeps its edge longer was pretty well settled. Is there evidence out there that soft steel can actually stay sharp longer? Is there a difference between hardness and resistance to dulling?

Maybe soft Irwin chisels are great, and they have some special quality that makes soft steel hold an edge, but I can get harder Narex chisels for similar money, and Narex has a better reputation.

I'm not surprised that a 19th-century chisel would be soft. It would be a sad thing if metallurgy had not improved in 137 years.

Warren's point is that hardness isn't everything, particularly for Western chisels. This is so for at least two reasons:

• Beyond a certain point hardness is a liability. Harder steels are also more brittle and prone to chipping, and require higher edge angles as a consequence. Those higher edge angles lead to higher cutting forces, which are undesirable for a number of reasons. All of the chisels we're discussing here are <=Rc59, though, so I don't think this really comes into play for you. A lot of folks swear by HCS/O1 paring chisels precisely because the "softer" steel allows use of a finer edge.
• The steels used in Western chisels contain carbides that are significantly harder and more abrasion-resistant than the overall matrix. These help edge life by "reinforcing" the edge, and thereby decouple edge life from overall hardness to an extent. If they're too large (coarse grain structure) they limit ultimate sharpness and hurt edge life by promoting chipping. They can also make sharpening difficult. With the exception of Narex the chisel's we're discussing are all HCS, so most of the carbide content will consist of relatively small Ferrite bits. Again this one probably isn't a huge factor for you.

More broadly, the topic of how much improvement metallurgy has wrought in woodworking steels is a very "religious" one. I would advise not going any further down that path, as you will find the resulting discussion to be both contentious and fairly impervious to fact and reason.

Warren is also right that the "scratch test" is not terribly precise, though for purely relative determinations ("Is X harder or softer than Y") it's workable. After all that's more or less how the Mohs hardness scale was established.

[Steve H Graham]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

That is, of course, nonsense. I don't know the reason for the 1880 chisel's softness, but the steel itself matters, as do improvements in hardening technology. Surely you don't think 1880 steel cutting tools are just as good as the best steel tools made in 2017.

As for saying metallurgy isn't black magic, well, nothing could be farther from the truth. It's a very strange business. Ask a TIG welder.

[Steve H Graham]

More broadly, the topic of how much improvement metallurgy has wrought in woodworking steels is a very "religious" topic. I would advise not going any further down that path, as you will find the resulting discussion to be both contentious and fairly impervious to fact and reason.

Warren is also right that the "scratch test" is not terribly precise, though for purely relative determinations ("Is X harder or softer than Y") it's workable. After all that's more or less how the Mohs hardness scale was established.

I agree with that, and I especially agree with the bit about arguing about metallurgy. For example, the world is full of people who saw the movie Highlander and now think there is a magical ancient steel which can slice through concrete parking garage pillars. Many people believe "Damascus steel," which is something that doesn't even exist as a type, is as flexible as a leaf spring and as hard as a diamond. In reality, you can buy better steel at Bed Bath & Beyond all day.

I had a "Damascus" Shun knife, and someone put it in the dishwasher. It bumped against another item, and two chunks fell out of it. Kind of amusing, but I spent $80 on it.

[Patrick Chase]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

If we're just talking about conventional HCS, then yes, the smiths of yore could do a pretty creditable job. They couldn't and didn't always do so (see: Titanic, embrittled rivets used in manufacture of) but their best products are right up there with anything made from HCS today.

There's no way they could have achieved something like PM-V11 or even a modern HSLA-family steel (though obviously you wouldn't use the latter in a chisel). The knowledge and technology simply didn't exist.

[Pat Barry]

Your last sentence is nonsence of course, Steve. In the 19th century smith's were fully aware how to regulate the hardness of a chisel. It's not black magic. More inportant, they actually cared about the quality of their products because their income depended on it. I am afraid Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products at all.

Its nonsense to say Irwin doesn't care about the quality of their products. I'm sure they have specifications for important things, including hardness. All the testing so far that Steve has done has just been comparative and really doesn't enlighten anyone as to the quality of the tool, let alone allow us to make gross generalizations about the general state of care or concern to quality of a major manufacturer.

Those old tools are precious becasue they were good enough to survive. I'm sure the junk yards and scrap yards are loaded with lesser quality old tools that weren't good enough for whoever it may have been. As I pointed out a few times previously, old bad tools went to the scrap yard to be melted down and re-purposed as war equipment in WWI and WWII, bot in the US and Europe.

[Robert Engel]

Keep in mind only the last inch or so may be hardened.

I have a set of Irwin Marples as a utility set. The work quite well as firmer chisels doing mortises, etc.

Plus, how hard does it need to be? There is a trade off for that too