Begone, Troll! :-):-):-)Originally Posted by Pat Barry
That's an eminently fair comment of course.
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Begone, Troll! :-):-):-)
That's an eminently fair comment of course.
[OP]
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As forums go, this isn't that bad. I belong to an electronics forum. Almost every time I ask a question, I get insulted within the first few responses. I finally realized there was no way to prevent it, because it didn't matter what I said. I learned to treat them like mental patients. "Yessssss, Google IS my friend, and I AM wasting valuable bandwidth! Thank you for suggesting something I already did fifteen times before I came here. I am awed by your genius and by the awesome collection of Lord of the Rings action figures which, I'm pretty sure, you have standing around your water-cooled ten-horsepower gaming system. Now about that filter capacitor..."
Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of bench.
I was socially distant before it was cool.
A little authority corrupts a lot.
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You ain't seen nothing,Steve! Try going to a machinist's forum. That is where the trash and trolls really live. I have gotten the feeling that a lot of these armchair experts can barely run a lathe and make simple parts. Then,they call themselves MACHINISTS!! And some say "The ONLY machinists today should be CNC operators." In other words push button operators. There may be some truth in that. We can't live without cheaply manufactured parts. We really can't. But,in small job shops there are still plenty of manual machines.
A MACHINIST should be well able to operate ALL the machines in a shop,and do all operations required,including spiral milling and gear making. And,I have seen precious few of those.
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I repeat: Irwin seems to have been another of those companies whose names were bought out by the Chinese. Milwaukee is one of the latest to go,that I know of. And,Milwaukee was always a top ranked maker of drills and other equipment. I wonder how good they will be made in China?
THE TRUTH IS: We have no one to blame except the general public. If they were willing to pay the Chinese decent prices,they'd get decent tools. But,we here are not the usual home handiman who wants to make repairs to his house,then let his paint spattered tools languish in a bucket in the cellar until the screen door falls off again. And THIS IS GOSPEL!!!! I have even SEEN that bucket set in a drip somewhere,and allowed to fill up with EL AGUA MUCHO!!!
I had the unique experience of being in public for 16 years. In a shop full of beautiful carved and inlaid instruments we made,as well as plain,but still the finest. I can't tell you how many times I had to put up with idiots. Especially old men,who would ignore the fine work,focus on some tiny detail,and TRY to run the whole shop down. HEAVENS,I bumped a SMALL carving tool along a few times WITH MY PALM!!! Of course I did not do that all day. Just didn't bother to reach for a mallet. (The mallet could have served better to club those two into unconsciousness!This flak from these worthies while dressed in their orange jump suits,looking like escaped prisoners!
I had one old man who we had seen a newspaper article about. He made lutes with PLASTIC,molded roses(the sound hole) in them. They did not have molded plastic roses in the old days,and we made AUTHENTIC instruments. He tried running us down in front of a big crowd because his roses popped out to make easier access to the inside of his lutes for repair work. But they still looked like someone in Disney Land was selling them as Christmas tree ornaments!!! I have dealt with several of those types!!
What I'm getting at is a LOT of people haven't the faintest idea of grace,quality,aesthetics,or anything else in products. THEY keep this tide of nearly given away Asian junk rolling in here. Good! More old,finely made tools for ME to find in flea markets!!! (Except that these days the flea markets are being done in because everything is on Ebay! That might be o.k. for me,as my knees have given out,and I just can't walk too far. I used to walk MILES through those flea market expos ! I DID get some treasures!!
I mentioned before how I JUST started out in Kutztown,Pa.,with $500.00 in my pocket(in the 70's). What did I SOON find? A VERY LARGE display of perfect condition(used,but not messed up or rusty) carving tools,saws,etc. That just came out of an active old carving shop which had sold out and closed. There was this very large young man selling them. I SIGHED. Here I was just getting started,and here I was going to blow my whole wad. Those tools were just irresistible. And,this was back when I hadn't a lot in my home shop.
I asked this walking computer(but the INTEL was missing
So,I picked out 24 (If I recall) carving tools,and asked the price. He screwed his face around for a minute and said "$150.00". Wyatt Earp had nothing on the speed with which I yanked my money out!!!! He would have been a dead duck,had it been a gunfight!!!
So,a while later,this guy shows up following me,carrying a very fine Atkins miter box saw. All bright blade,used but never abused in any way. The old applewood handle had reached a magnificent chestnut brown color from sunlight over many decades. He wanted me to pay him $50.00 for it. I think he finally figured out his mistake,and was trying to recover SOMETHING,at least. I had no use for the saw,and STILL have it,never have used it. about 30" of very small teeth! I felt sorry for him and gave him the $50.00. A beautiful tool,but I was not a furniture maker. I need to sell it.
What is the point of this tale? I haven't the slightest idea!!! But some guys here seem to like my tool and wood stories,of which I have quite a few,woodworking being my whole life. And,I'm tired of leaving a space after a comma!
I wonder WHO is the snob being referred to? I don't think I have said anything untrue,or snobbish.
Last edited by george wilson; 06-29-2017 at 7:24 AM.
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I think they do, but not in the way that people in Neanderthal Haven care. Irwin cares that the typical home center chisel purchaser finds their product good enough and good value. The typical U.S. home center chisel purchaser has not a clue about flattening the back of a chisel or sharpening it before use. It's new, it has to be sharp ..... doesn't it? Does bring it home, take it out of the package and start beating on it. Doesn't frequent internet hand tool forums. I think that's a fair characterization of the typical U.S. home center tool purchaser and the market that Irwin caters to.
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Possibly the average home owner does not even try sharpening his chisel. Or grinds it on his bench grinder. Then,goes to work with it!
Now,THAT was SNOBBISH!! But I'm thinking of all those I had to put up with. And,be polite to,NO MATTER WHAT,in the museum.
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It is kind of funny to see this comment about Chrome Vanadium steel. This steel was the A2 and PMV 11 of its day.
The chrome-vanadium steel blades hardened to Rc 58-62 hold an edge better than a standard carbon steel blade. [Lee Valley catalog 1984/85]
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Perfectly true,Warren. But I am sure that you know that everything in steel is a trade off. Alloys will hold the edge longer. But I guarantee that simple 1085 or 1095 gets sharper than anything else. Except POSSIBLY the new powdered steels. I haven't yet enough experience with them to comment.
Tool sharpness really becomes evident and very important,when trying to cut a soft,rubbery,fuzzy material like chrome tanned sea ray skin! I had to resort to my LN block plane when trying to skive it down to tissue paper thin. I was repairing an 18th. C. ray skin covered tailor's folding rule case. The case was about 4" long,holding a walrus ivory folding rule in French 18th. C. lignes,and would unfold to about 18" The lignes were about 1 1/8" each,of our inches. The LN was equipped with a plain carbon steel blade. It beat the A2 blades by a mile. The soft fuzz was just too yielding to stand up to the extra pressure that the A2 blade needed,no matter how sharp I got it. I haven't yet tried the PM V11 blade of my LV NX 60,which was a later purchase.
The original ray skin was vegetable tanned,and literally thinner than the thinnest tissue paper. It isn't available any more vegetable tanned. I had to send to England to get a skin in the first place.Vegetable tanned leaves a stiffer layer under the outer skin,and can be more easily skived. The old guy who skived the original ray skin(and probably was a specialist who never did anything else!,got that pebbly textured skin so thin,you can very nearly see through it. The original ray skin needed repair. What was left of it fell off!
Mike,you are perfectly correct,too. But,those alloys that aid in holding a good edge sacrifice the maximum sharpness than you can get on it. Maybe try stropping a CV chisel on a wet jelly fish!
Most of the time a CV tool will get sharp enough for general use. However,when carving VERY THIN elements like the rose of a lute,you definitely need ALL the edge you can get. If the tool requires too much force to cut,it can break off the little elements you are trying to carve. The lute rose below is 1/16" thick where the vines are. The surrounds are 1/8". I just used a German carving knife of plain carbon steel(actually I had made a new blade for it when the original got worn too much. I used 1095. Look how narrow the "tails" of the vines get. They will not stand much cutting pressure. And,the image is larger than the real rose. It is shown at 6 1/2" diameter. The real one is 4" in diameter.
The ultimate strop is said to be the palm of the hand. I will give a chisel a few strops on my palm every so often when using a chisel or knife,etc..
Last edited by george wilson; 06-29-2017 at 8:46 AM.
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Don't forget that the gentleman who posted the comment you quoted is a novice, and was relating what he had found by looking through various forums and posts, in an effort to learn what he should really be looking for in a chisel. And that he posted a disclaimer saying he was a poor, ignorant newbie, as well.
And that his post was another effort to learn something from those who have more experience than he.
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The average American consumer shops by price and this applies to ww'ers, too. You get what you pay for.If they were willing to pay the Chinese decent prices,they'd get decent tools.
The American companies who no longer make their own products, have to stand behind their name and keep the QC level high.
But too many have opted for cheap products at cheap prices.
Last edited by Robert Engel; 06-29-2017 at 9:05 AM.
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Sick of this entirely. Now not only acting like old ladies but juveniles with the name calling. Complete BS in my opinion. Can't have an adult discussion here if you don't agree.
Member
Can't take a joke,Pat?
Member
Yeah, humor doesn't always convey well in a forum. I repeated the "Begone, Troll" as a riff off of my comment saying the same thing in another thread, hence the smiley faces.
"That's an eminently fair comment" was in response to your comment, i.e. I think that what you were saying is a reasonable critique. I realize that it could be interpreted as claiming that calling you a troll was "fair", so my apologies for not being more careful with my wording.
As George points out and demonstrates in his posts, we all need to lighten up a little, and that includes me.
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I'd like to help stop trolling ....but all my time is taken up by the Anti Engineer Bashing Committee.
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To me it seems the point was to liven up our morning reading.What is the point of this tale? I haven't the slightest idea!!!
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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