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Thread: Turning steel on the wood lathe with woodturing tools

  1. #1
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    Turning steel on the wood lathe with woodturing tools

    While making some fidget spinners (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...idget-Spinners) I wanted a good way to securely hold a flat disk with a 22mm hole. At first I made a wooden jam chuck but I decided to modify some steel Nova pin jaws to hold the disks. The pin jaws are about 25mm I think, too big for the 22mm hole. If I turned them down to 22mm I could also machine a square shoulder on the jaws so I could register the blank precisely when turning the back face.

    Although I have metal machining equipment, I decided to try machining it on the wood lathe using standard woodturning tools. The biggest reason to turn it on the wood lathe is that is a simple way to ensure the final jaws are perfectly concentric to the wood lathe since the chuck is already threaded for the spindle!

    I have turned a bunch of much softer aluminum and brass but never tried steel. I'd heard it was possible so why not?

    I was a little concerned since one good way to destroy a sharp edge on a tool is to accidentally run it into the chuck jaws! Putting the tool to the steel on purpose concerned me a little until I considered this: most of the tools we use on the metal lathe are made of HSS and are ground very much like scrapers - they call the grind angle the relief. There is both end relief and side relief: http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/tip...olgrinding.htm In fact, the hand-held metalworking tool called a graver looks more or less like a scraper to me.

    I already had a 1/2" Thompson scraper ground with both end and side relief for a special purpose, so I just used it on the steel.

    Cutting the steel was slow but it worked fine. Here is a picture:



    I sharpened tool on both the end and side, honed, then pushed the tool straight into the steel at the center line. I cut a square shoulder to help register the blank. It did leave very thin needles instead for shavings so a word to the wise - don't touch!

    Guess what, turning steel dulled the tool quicker than wood. Duh. I made several trips to the grinder!

    This picture shows a Cocobolo blank held for turning:



    I did a several of things to make these jaws better for the very specific job of turning these little spinners. First, I made the distance from the end to the shoulder exactly the thickness of one of the 608 bearings commonly used in the little spinners. This way I can turn the hub to the thickness needed without ever having to measure.

    Second, I made the jaw diameter 21mm for clearance but compensated to make a perfect fit at 22mm. We know the best holding power of jaws whether with a recess or a tenon is when the diameter matches exactly. If the diameter is too small, each jaw is only holding by the rounded center portion. If the diameter is too large the jaws will only hold by the "corners". To make them expandable to a perfect 22mm fit I first turned them to 21mm for clearance. Then I opened the jaws and tightened them down on some shim stock and shaved a tiny bit more to take off the "humps".

    Lastly, I don't intend to take these jaws off the chuck. I like to have a chuck for each the jaws I use the most and I have several with the pin jaws. I have never used one in the expansion mode, just in the compression mode to hold small things. Modifying this set for a special expansion use doesn't affect their compression use at all.

    Now when I open them on a 22mm hole they are snug and secure even with very little tightening force. This is important on the fidget spinners if wood is removed close to the center. A tiny bit too much expansion force and the wood will crack. I learned the breaking force the hard way!

    Back to turning steel: I did try a few other tools. One was a 3/8" bowl gouge, another was a skew with a 45-deg total sharpening angle. While both of these (and others) work very well with aluminum and brass, they don't work so well on steel! The blunter edge of a the scraper was perfect.

    JKJ

  2. #2
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    I would make an expanding mandrel out of a hardwood that screws on to the threads of the lathe. Turn it to size of the interior hole of the spinner, drill the center and tap with a 1/2" pipe plug. Then cut 4 slots so that the "fingers" from the 4 cuts will expand to hold the spinner blank. This one is for polishing duck call bands, but it shows what one would look like. The saw cuts are grippers to unscrew it, I have upgraded them to a checkering pattern.

    Pipe Plug Expanding Mandrel .jpg

  3. #3
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    I did exactly that at first before I decided to make one from steel. I didn't tap for a pipe plug but just put a wood screw in the crossed saw kerf in the center. For gripping a hole for a bearing not much thicker than 1/4" (7mm) you can run the saw kerfs past the registration shoulder best used for turning a thin disk.

    I held the wood in a spare Nova chuck. Extremely quick to make. For yours a hole drilled all the way through from the side could let you use the leverage of a rod or screwdriver for easy removal.

    wood_expanding_chuck.jpg

    Threading it for direct connection to the lathe spindle would make it easier to use, not tie up a chuck, and unlike using a chuck would probably re-register nicely. I have too many chucks, though. No wait, you can't have too many chucks...

    JKJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin Hasenak View Post
    I would make an expanding mandrel out of a hardwood that screws on to the threads of the lathe. Turn it to size of the interior hole of the spinner, drill the center and tap with a 1/2" pipe plug. Then cut 4 slots so that the "fingers" from the 4 cuts will expand to hold the spinner blank. This one is for polishing duck call bands, but it shows what one would look like. The saw cuts are grippers to unscrew it, I have upgraded them to a checkering pattern.

    Pipe Plug Expanding Mandrel .jpg
    JKJ

  4. #4
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    Curious, John? Did you use any cutting oil during the cutting?

    Even though I sort of "grew up" in a machine shop I often forget to toss some oil on the piece when I am drilling. The oil makes a huge difference as I am sure you know. I guess I forget because I have been drilling wood so long I am used to doing things dry.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Reischl View Post
    Curious, John? Did you use any cutting oil during the cutting?
    Even though I sort of "grew up" in a machine shop I often forget to toss some oil on the piece when I am drilling. The oil makes a huge difference as I am sure you know. I guess I forget because I have been drilling wood so long I am used to doing things dry.
    I always use lubricant on the metal lathe and mill but did not use it on the wood lathe. It might have made things easier, but the cuts were so light compared to the metal lathe (and compared to drilling!) so who knows. I didn't sense any heat unlike the hot blue chips that come from normal milling.

    One thing is I don't like to use oil around where I work on wood I might apply finish to later. I even keep a separate drill press in another room just for drilling metals.

    JKJ

  6. #6
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    And cutting oil stinks
    John do you use water soluable oil in water or straight oil.

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    It never occurred to me that my lathe could turn metal as well . Might come in handy sometime

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Jobe View Post
    And cutting oil stinks
    John do you use water soluable oil in water or straight oil.
    I use either. Mostly light oil in a can when milling and water based for the horiz bandsaw. Stinky stuff for tapping. What ever is handy for drilling. All seems to work.

    JKJ

  9. #9
    I have a metal lathe (Grizzly G0765) and a wood lathe (PowerMatic 3520B) also. Having a metal lathe, I would be very reluctant to turn hard metals like steel on the wood lathe. Aluminum is probably ok though.

    The issue is that metal lathe work uses very hard cutters, usually carbide tipped. Also, the carriage holds the tool in a very firm manner and the tool doesn't project beyond the carriage far at all. It is designed for very controllable work, and that's why tolerances on the cut item of 0.001" are possible.

    If you are going to do much metal work on a lathe, I highly recommend a metal lathe. The Grizzly does great work.

    Rich
    Last edited by Rich Colvin; 07-01-2017 at 9:59 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Colvin View Post
    The issue is that metal lathe work uses very hard cutters, usually carbide tipped. Also, the carriage holds the tool in a very firm manner and the tool doesn't project beyond the carriage far at all. It is designed for very controllable work, and that's why tolerances on the cut item of 0.001" are possible.

    If you are going to do much metal work on a lathe, I highly recommend a metal lathe. The Grizzly does great work.

    Rich
    When I started years ago, carbide cutters in lathes were a very rare thing, it was all HSS. They were cutting LOTS of steel on a lathe before carbide became widespread.

    Interestingly, my old Delta 1460 has a cross slide attachment for doing metal work. It also has the jack shaft so the rpm can be really stepped down. That lathe was built in 1946 and the cross slide uses HSS tools (or I would have to find very small shanks for carbide tools).

    I do aluminum and brass on mine occasionally without the cross slide. Not sure I would attempt steel myself.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Reischl View Post
    I do aluminum and brass on mine occasionally without the cross slide. Not sure I would attempt steel myself.
    Freehand turning of steel with Hss hand tools is actually pretty common. The tools used are called "gravers." You can find a lot of info on the internet. Perfect for curved things. You can find plans for building a tool rest almost identical to those we use in woodturning. I found some interesting discussion in some metalworking forums. I also have machining books from the 30s that describe turning steel freehand with hardened carbon steel gravers. Turning steel is certainly slower than turning aluminum and brass but not something I would describe as challenging or the least bit hazardous. It certainly doesn't stress the wood lathe.

    The usual idea of freehand turning is not precision but shaping things difficult or impossible to do by cranking on a compound. (Like drawing circles on an Etch-a-Sketch!) For my use, the flats I cut were simply subsets of curves. :-)

    Rich, I could have CUT this quicker and more precisely with my metal lathe but but the setup time might have made the whole thing take much longer. I chose the wood lathe mostly because of the ease in setup to guarantee the result was exactly concentric - simply screw the Nova chuck with the jaws onto the lathe wood spindle! (And it was fun just to try.)

    BTW, the ClickSpring video guy uses a graver several times in his amazing clock videos. He mentioned several times how much fun it was shaping by hand. I thought, he should try woodturning!

    JKJ

  12. #12
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    When I got my Grizzley G0766, I felt that the 14" cast iron or cast steel tool rest sat too high. The only way to lower it was to turn off about 1/2 inch of a shoulder. My metal lathe is only a 12" so I couldn't use it. I could have cut the tool rest back to 12" but thought I would try turning the tool rest on my new wood lathe. The scariest part was making sure that I didn't get any of my extremities in the trajectory of the flying "wings". I used a (metal cutting) cemented carbide cutter in essentially a scraping mode. It had a tendency to chatter a little and also tried taking too big of a bite periodically. The chatter produced needle sharp slivers of metal. I ended up putting on a pair of rubber gloves because the slivers were embedding in my fingers like cactus barbs. So, I attached a collar to the carbide cutter to limit the depth of cut to perhaps 0.030 or 0.040 per pass. A fair percentage of the time I was getting decent chips. In perhaps 5 minutes I was done. Cast iron (because of its high carbon content) cuts pretty easy with or without a lubricant.

    If I were to do it again, I would probably use a HSS cutter and make it narrower (like a parting tool) and perhaps put a positive rake on it.

    I could have just used an angle grinder to remove that portion of the tool rest but I didn't want to butcher the brand new toolrest into something really ugly.

  13. #13
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    I turned down a 1" steel rod to 3/4" to make a boring bar. As it is 27" long it would take a rather large metal lath. I used 1/8" or 3/16" square 10% cobalt bits. This is scraping. You have to push really hard, and it takes a long time.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  14. #14
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    Perhaps you could locate a steady rest with rollers for a job like that.

    In the shop we used to put some kind of detergent in the coolant , especially if the machine leaked oil into the coolant. Laundry detergent, dish washing soap, etc. That is, for a water soluable oil, anyway.
    Also, they make a product you mix in your oil that eminates smoke from turning metal.
    Last edited by Bill Jobe; 07-02-2017 at 6:19 PM.

  15. #15
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    I have a steady rest, but I only use it to hollow the first half. After I get so deep the cutting is close to the face plate and it is not needed.

    The metal rod is too thin for my steady rest. The dimple on the end engages the tailstock which provided plenty of support when I was turning it.

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