Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: Brass engraving

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Manna-Thise, Denmark
    Posts
    201

    Brass engraving

    I have an enquiry from a customer about brass engraving. I've considered buying a fiber engraver anyway but haven't done much research into them to date. My customer wants to know if I can engrave up to 1mm deep in brass. Any suggestion what engraver will do that? I assume multiple passes would be required so a fairly slow process?

    I did suggest etching but because of personalisation of the items that would be too labor intensive. Same goes for milling.

    PS: I think 1mm depth is excessive for paint fill but that is what she asked for. However I can probably persuade her that less will do.
    Last edited by Michael Henriksen; 06-30-2017 at 9:01 AM.
    G. Weike LG900N 100W RECI RDWorks V8
    Leiming LM2513FL 1kW Raycus fiber laser cutter
    Wisely 50W Raycus engraver

  2. #2
    Fiber lasering brass is hit or miss. I have seen many people say "I do it all the time, it works great, looks good". I've personally put 50 caliber brass shells into a fiber laser and no amount of anything leave ANY mark on the shell, much less one I'd say was "great". Then, others have said "I engrave shells all the time, it works great, here's proof". Well, proof that it worked on the shells you had doesn't solve the issue that at 100% power, .1% speed, it wouldn't leave any mark on brass. The same settings on stainless and it's shooting sparks. Only thing it did was make the brass hot.

    Move on to a job we took doing Buck Knives, the brass part of them. All it would do is leave a very faint white mark on the brass, no matter what. However, the brass they used to drive a pin through it all to hold it together was a different grade of brass and did mark.

    Another experience, a customer brought in machined brass and it marked fantastic. Nice and black and it would cut into the brass for certain.

    With those experiences repeating themselves many times over, over the last few years, my advice to anyone with brass and a fiber would be the answer should almost always be "It may work, I'd have to have one to try and let you know for sure". There's nothing worse than telling someone you can do it and then getting the parts and finding out it won't even leave a mark.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Manna-Thise, Denmark
    Posts
    201
    Thanks Scott, that is useful advise. I haven't made any promises, just told the customer I would look into it. I'm a bit weary of some of the claims from the Chinese vendors about what the engravers will do.
    G. Weike LG900N 100W RECI RDWorks V8
    Leiming LM2513FL 1kW Raycus fiber laser cutter
    Wisely 50W Raycus engraver

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    1,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    ...With those experiences repeating themselves many times over, over the last few years, my advice to anyone with brass and a fiber would be the answer should almost always be "It may work, I'd have to have one to try and let you know for sure". There's nothing worse than telling someone you can do it and then getting the parts and finding out it won't even leave a mark.
    Steve,

    I have learned to do just that. Fiber settings are so much more complex than Co2, and inconsistent too - very temperamental to small differences in a similar metal or plastic. I had a major national company here today needing a number of hydraulic metal parts engraved. These are all different types of steel. I gave a rough ball park price. Asked for detail drawings for a better ballpark pricing. I told them that the final pricing could then be determined only after I actually engraved each type of part. A side bonus, by using this method I was able to learn what they've been paying in the past (for a poor quality engraving).
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
    Ricoh SG3110DN
    - Liberty Laser LLC

  5. #5
    I took it as a personal challenge to figure out from a scientific standpoint why it wouldn't mark those brass shell casings. I wanted to know and understand what was in the brass that would allow it to work or not work. I certainly found examples of the differences in the types of brass used to stamp shells out of sheet, but I didn't see any content percentages that varied enough to think it would make the difference in a mark and no mark. I thought it was isolated to the sheet stock materials used to punch shells casings, which allowed it to flow over the dies, but when it wouldn't touch the brass ends of a Buck knives, it threw that theory out.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Henriksen View Post
    I have an enquiry from a customer about brass engraving. I've considered buying a fiber engraver anyway but haven't done much research into them to date. My customer wants to know if I can engrave up to 1mm deep in brass. Any suggestion what engraver will do that? I assume multiple passes would be required so a fairly slow process?

    I did suggest etching but because of personalisation of the items that would be too labor intensive. Same goes for milling.

    PS: I think 1mm depth is excessive for paint fill but that is what she asked for. However I can probably persuade her that less will do.
    1: Brass should be engraved the old fashioned way, by actual engraving. Lasers are cool but cutter tools rule

    2: Anyone in their right mind would never ask for 1mm (.039") deep engraving.

    --ok, that wasn't very nice -- but I've told this (in a nice way ) to hundreds of customers over the years. Most people, even engineers, don't realize how deep of engraving is actually needed for their job. There are certain reasons deep engraving is necessary, but paint filling personalized brass is not one of them. You only need .003" deep to paint fill, and .006" deep is like the grand canyon to Testors enamel - most common engraving depth asked for is .020", which is a 2-pass by tool run even in aluminum.

    I made this plate in the pics YEARS ago as a visual aid to show people (on my old XT with a then-bad lead screw nut)...
    When they see what .020" deep actually looks like, they're okay with my recommendations! (Same .012" tip x 22° draft tool engraved it all)
    depth1.jpg
    depth2.jpg
    depth3.jpg

    -- the difference from .020 to .030 is, a LOT! Now add another .010 and you have 1mm...

    And here's a thought- I bought some engravers brass not long ago. In the old days you got 1/16" thick. Then for many years it was .050" thick, almost the same, costs the mfr less. But last time, unless I wanted to special order online, typical leaded"door sign" brass I could find in a timely manner is now .040" thick-- or 1mm. Engrave this stuff 1mm deep and you have a stencil!

    Next-- I don't do any non-laser etching so I'm clueless here, but I'm not sure why engraving (milling) would be too labor intensive? Engraving metal deep enough to be paint filled is MUCH faster than a fiber can do. And then there's the paint filling itself, fiber engraving leaves a nasty slag burr along the outline edges, unless you develop a very time consuming routine (which I've yet to figure out, but I'm close!) to remove it while engraving. This burr makes paint filling a nightmare. And even discounting paint, deep engraving by tool is much cleaner and nicer. For aesthetic items, engraving. Utilitarian items, fiber.

    that's my worth (inflation )
    ========================================
    ELEVEN - rotary cutter tool machines
    FOUR - CO2 lasers
    THREE- make that FOUR now - fiber lasers
    ONE - vinyl cutter
    CASmate, Corel, Gravostyle


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Manna-Thise, Denmark
    Posts
    201
    Thanks Kev. I figured deep milling on brass would take longer than lasering and prep time in CAM would be longer. Anyway milling won't work for this as the designs requires some sharp inside corners. I have previously cast pieces in tin for the customer and that has 1.2mm depth so I assume that is where the request from 1mm comes from. However I agree much less would suffice.
    G. Weike LG900N 100W RECI RDWorks V8
    Leiming LM2513FL 1kW Raycus fiber laser cutter
    Wisely 50W Raycus engraver

  8. #8
    Q-Switched YAG for brass
    You did what !

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    NW Arkansas
    Posts
    1,951
    Blog Entries
    1
    I'll second Scott. I've been playing with brass shells, I've a couple that I engraved three different ways from a very nice white mark that is probably a half a thousanth deep to brown mark on surface. Several different shells would not do a thing... I've a key chain tag that is brass. Anneal settings worked great, but I could wipe the mark off and did with a dry rag! White engraving setting and it worked like a champ! Again about a half a thou deep. Silicon concentration probably is one of the factors. Maybe not, but I bet so!
    Woodworking, Old Tools and Shooting
    Ray Fine RF-1390 Laser Ray Fine 20watt Fiber Laser
    SFX 50 Watt Fiber Laser
    PM2000, Delta BS, Delta sander, Powermatic 50 jointer,
    Powermatic 100-12 planer, Rockwell 15-126 radial drill press
    Rockwell 46-450 lathe, and 2 Walker Turner RA1100 radial saws
    Jet JWS18, bandsaw Carbide Create CNC, RIA 22TCM 1911s and others

  10. #10
    I've cnc engraved brass too - for gravestone plaques etc - but also cut a vinyl mask, and etched it with ferric chloride.
    There IS a learing curve, and cautions, but it was a good exercise for the job I used it for - needing a halftone photo etched and then blackened.
    Last edited by Ian Stewart-Koster; 07-02-2017 at 1:36 AM.
    Best wishes,
    Ian



    ULS M-300, 55w made 2002 with rotary. Goldenlaser 130 watt, 1300x700 made 2011.
    Flat bed 2500x1300 150/90watt 2 tube laser, 2018 model.
    Esab router, 1989, 4.5 x 2.0 m, conv. to Tekcel, and modded a 2nd time.
    HP L260-60". Roland PNC-1410. Mimaki GC-130 SU.
    Screenprinting carousel 6x4 and 7x4 ft 1-arm bandit vac table.
    Corel Draw X3, Illy, Indesign & Photoshop CS2 & CS5, Enroute 4
    Pencil, paper, paintbrush, airbrush & dagger-liners & assorted other stuff.

  11. #11
    One of my customers (former) was an ammunition manufacturer and over the years I did a fairly good volume of work for them. Neither they nor I was ever totally pleased with the results of my diamond drag marking. I proceeded to do fairly extensive research into marking this brass with a fiber laser. I requested samples from a number of companies including a local one with American made equipment. None could produce a satisfactory mark. And if they could have done it it would have simply been too expensive. With that I scrapped all plans to buy a fiber laser as I have no desire to do guns or knives; the other requests I get with some frequency.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Posts
    1,843
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Null View Post
    ... With that I scrapped all plans to buy a fiber laser as I have no desire to do guns or knives; the other requests I get with some frequency.
    Funny - different markets, just the opposite story. I was turning away a LOT of metal work, so I gambled (big time) and bought my first Fiber. In less than 2 years 50%-60% of my business is metal of all types from Guns to SpaceX & my 2nd Fiber is on it's way here now.
    Tim
    There are Big Brain people & Small Brain people. I'm one of the Big Brains - with a lot of empty space.- me
    50W Fiber - Raycus/MaxPhotonics - It's a metal eating beast!
    Epilog Fusion M2 50/30 Co2/Fiber - 2015
    Epilog Mini 24 – 35watt - 2006 (Original Tube)
    Ricoh SG3110DN
    - Liberty Laser LLC

  13. #13
    Tim

    I know there are opportunities with guns and knives but that tends to be what I call retail business where the owners have to bring their items to my home for engraving. I don't want that traffic and try to limit my business to commercial and institutional work.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  14. #14
    Brass is not a problem for fiber. Here are some brass split rings I marked yesterday.
    The specs required light etching of a part #/weight limit to be place on each side diametrically opposite of each other.
    Once marked the machine shop will split the rings leaving 2 halves with the same mark.

    Light marking is all I have ever done with brass. Tooled engraving would be far more practical for engraving where significant depth is desired.



    -John
    Last edited by Mike Null; 08-12-2017 at 9:12 AM. Reason: removed ad
    Red Bolt Laser Engraving
    Houston, Texas

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Manna-Thise, Denmark
    Posts
    201
    John, what power are you running at? I wonder if those that were not able to engrave on brass simply didn't have the power needed available.
    G. Weike LG900N 100W RECI RDWorks V8
    Leiming LM2513FL 1kW Raycus fiber laser cutter
    Wisely 50W Raycus engraver

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •