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Thread: Roubo, The "German" Bench and The Tail Vice.

  1. #1
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    Roubo, The "German" Bench and The Tail Vice.

    Hobby woodworking has been in short supply of late. Most of it is confined to reading and thinking about projects I hope to one day begin. On the reading side of things, I've given some attention to Roubo's workbench options. I've never worked with a tail/wagon vice, however I can see some merit in them. I am considering, at some point, making a bench with one fitted.

    Clearly, a tail/end vice in not required for excellent woodworking. There are plenty of other options. A bench knife, bar clamp in a face vice, holdfasts, battens etc. However, clearly highly skilled woodworkers of the 18th century took the time to make and end vice for highly detailed work such as veneer or inlay. The extent of the work of the Menuisier-Ebeniste can be seen by the link. The "classic" Roubo set up and work made using the bench can be found here

    Warren was good enough to translate a section that I could not get to grips with, that section is shown in italics.

    For those that work with a tails vice, do you find them useful? Are they simply of no use? Hope you enjoy the read, all comments welcome!

    Description of Cabinetmakers/Veneer Workers Tools
    The tools and equipment of the cabinet-makers do the same as those of joiners for producing work, as, for example, the workbenches and the sharpening tools. But they have others which differ greatly from those of the ordinary joiners, and which consequently require a particular description. I will give a brief description of the tools which are necessary for a cabinetmaker, as well as other tools & instruments whose use is necessary in this part of woodworking.

    As the cabinet-makers do smaller work, they have more care to take in construction than would be normally used in other kinds of joinery. This is why there is a specific trade aside from work more commonly done, such as carpentry or joinery.

    The workbench, represented in fig. 1, is a German workbench. It is not certain that it was invented in Germany, or, what is more probable, created by German cabinet-makers, who are in great number in Paris. This bench, like all the others, is composed of four legs, a bottom and a top. At the extremity of which is placed a tail vice, used to retain the wood in place on the benchtop. This is done by means of two hooks or chins of iron. One of which is placed in the benchtop, and the other in the tail vice, and which is changed according to the position of the work at hand.



    The tail vice, which forms the most essential part of the workbench, is 14 or 15 inches in length, about 3 ½ inches wide and a thickness equal to that of the benchtop, which is usually 4 inches. This vice, shown in fig 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 & 12. The diagrams show an inside view of the moving screw, its nut, and is composed of four sections A, B, C, D fig 7. Also an end section E, fig 5, and fore section, F, fig 6 and 8. The iron hook passes through the fore section which may be seen in fig. 6 which is an open view of the vice, with section B removed, with the place of the hook, indicated by dotted lines. Fig 8, which represents the longitudinal screw and the mortise proper to place the hook.



    The piece F is presented to the end of the screw, located within the tail vice and has 8 to 10 inches of travel. It is retained in place by a rod G, fig.6 and 7, into which it enters into a notch. This rod G is used to fasten the underside of the vice at the place of the hook, and to compress the tongues of the rear piece, which, without the tail of the piece, would bear alone the whole weight of the vice

    The tongues of the rear part B, fig 7. must have little height, in order to manage the force of the cheek which holds them, the solidity of which is increased by screws with a countersunk head. Place it at a distance, as can be seen in this figure, which represents the transverse section of the box, and of a section of the box. See also Figure 10, which represents the side of the construction To see the box, with the bar GG, which supports it.



    The head E of the box, FIG. 5, 6 & 8, is assembled in the upper part and in the lower one with a groove and tongue, and is arrested with screws, or at least glue-dowels. The top piece A, passes into notch over the main part F, and is similarly secured, and that from below is assembled to the tongue and mortise.

    Piece B of the rear, fig. 7, is fastened with screws on the head of the box and on the main part, as can be seen in FIG. 12, which represents the box seen from behind. The front piece, which serves as a door, attaches similarly with screws, which are stopped only with the nut.

    The screw which serves to move this box, is made of iron, as well as its nut, which is the strongest; However, when we want to save cost, we know the wooden screw and the nut in iron, furnished with lead can be used as I can explain below.

    Whether the screw is made of wood or iron, it is necessary that it be of the whole length of the box, so that it also carries the end of the collar, there is then less fatigue when it presses against the box and consequently block F against the benchtop. See Fig. 8. The collar of the screw must be stuck in the head of the box, to open and close it. Which is done by observing a groove of about ¼ inch deep in the collar, into which two keys of iron or copper, or even of very hard wood, can be entered, which stop the screw and the box of a fixed manner. See Figs. 6 & 8, which represent the section of the screw and keys which stop its collar

    When an iron screw is used, ¾ of an inch diameter is sufficient for it. When it is made of wood, it is necessary, in order that it be solid, that it should have be at least 1 ⅜ inches.

    The nut for the wooden screw is formed like a babbitt bearing. The hole in the iron nut is made way oversized and molten lead alloy is poured in with a piece of threaded wood in place in order to form the threads of the nut. There are 4 holes made from the outside edges of the nut so that the lead alloy has keys to keep it from turning inside the iron part when in use. The pattern screw is covered with a thin coating of clay and glue mixture both to keep the screw from burning and to provide clearance when the vise is in use. Before pouring, the clay mixture is also applied around the outside of the nut in a ring around the wooden screw to form a dam so the alloy does not flow out at the openings of the nut.


    The iron hooks or chins used in the tail vice, are about ⅞ ths of an inch square, a length equal to the thickness of the workbench, plus ⅞ ths of an inch. They also have one or two springs to the sides so that they can hold up to such a height that it is judged to be appropriate. See Figs. 2 & 3.


    The hook which is located in the benchtop, changes, as is required in holes that are 4 inches of distances from each other, and 1 ¾ inches from the edge of the workbench, so that the middle of their width is just at the midpoint of the screw. Refer to fig.5.


    The holes for the hooks, are arranged in a sloping manner, counter to that of the tail vice, as can be seen in Fig. 6, so that when the wood is pressed between the hooks, the force of the pressure does not force them out of place, and that the piece e, fig. I, which is taken in-between, does not escape

    A leg vice is fitted to the leg of the bench. Also, for the sake of convenience, a second, moving vice is fitted. This moves on a tongue fixed to the lower rail and groove in the underside of the benchtop. This second vice moves from one end of the workbench to the other, as it is deemed appropriate, and is removed by sliding it towards the fixed vice where the tongue is cut short.

    These vices open to any position required. To keep them open both from the bottom and from the top, a runner is fixed into the bottom of the vice, fig. 4. It is pierced by several holes, in which is placed an iron pin to stop them at the required distance.

    In addition to the vices described a smaller vice is mounted with iron screws, the face of the vice is equal to the thickness of the benchtop. See Fig. 11, where I have represented a section of this vice, with its screw and its nut. I have also indicated, by punctuated lines, the place of the hooks or chins, the groove of the moving vice. The joints of the legs are also shown, and are only three quarters of the thickness of the table, which is cleaner, and is much better than to make them pass through, as is the custom on a joiners bench.

    Instead of using iron screws on these face vices, we can use wood. The side of the workbench can be tapped. At the end of the vice screw there is normally a head for passing a lever to the operate the screw. Sometimes the screws have no head, and are tapped in all their length.


    Only included to show a bench edge tapped for a “twin screw vice”

    When not in use, parts of this vice are sometimes placed in drawers under the lower shelf of the workbench, like those H, I, L, fig. 1, which is very convenient to store an infinite number of things. Moreover, these drawers are less hinderance than those which are placed immediately below the workbench, as is the custom.


  2. #2
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    One of the most interesting parts for me was Fig 11, which shows the side of the bench tapped. Working as a twin screw vice.

  3. #3
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    I have always wanted a tail vise. I wound up w a LV inset vise. I build small stuff, probably no bigger than an end table at the largest-the inset vise is fine.......still dream about a tail vise, though.

    Was going through some old articles @ lunch yesterday, and ran across one where a guy rigged a Bessey cabinet clamp horizontally under his bench to serve the same purpose---looked to be easier than retrofitting to a full blown tail vise. We shall see......
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  4. #4
    The Klausz/Frid tail vise design is no more difficult to build than any other piece of clean joinery, but certainly limited to perhaps 4" top slab thickness without serious mods. After 13 years in service on my most recent bench (there were earlier, slightly smaller benches that I built in the early 1980's and mid-1990's...but wanted at least 8' between dogs), still runs smoothly and maintains perfect alignment. The Oct 2004 article in Woodworker's Journal does a decent job of explaining how to mill and assemble the tail vise, and it is simpler than it looks.

  5. #5
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    GH--thanks for posting that. I am warming to the idea of a tail vise. Though I love the end vise on my small Garrett-Wade bench of bubinga.

    "Anything seems possible when you don't know what you're doing."

  6. #6
    I went from a normal woodworking vise on the end to a period without an end vise and now with a Record on the end.

    Well, I never got really enthousiastic about working without an endvise. It seemed much more complicated to me. Maybe if I had finally learned how to plane against a simple stop, I would have been more enthousiastic. But now with the Record and working between dogs most of the time, I am happy again

    One thing, the Record has a quick release, and that saves a bunch of winding the vise up and down! So, either make something with a QR, or use a very coarse thread. My first vise was horrible in this regard.

  7. #7
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    I built a wagon style tail vise into my bench 17 years ago. Very handy indeed. One of the reasons I went with a wagon style was that my brother went through about 4 benches (all supposedly very good according to the experts) and every last one of them had a nasty habit of drooping when opened, or not coming back to where they belonged when closed. I had an old, old antique bench with a tail vise on it that did not have the problems. So it could be that things are just made a bit sloppier these days.

    The wagon style does not seem to have limited me in anyway that I can determine.

    Both of my vises, face and wagon are wooden. Built the bench myself. I would not trade those wooden vises for anything. Wood screws have much more friction than steel so it does not take as much force, also the faces have leather on them which not only protects the pieces, but also reduces how much force is needed to hold a piece. If you have not put leather on your vise faces, you are torturing yourself for no reason.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the feedback everyone, it was interesting to read about the bench from Roubo's perspective. Good to hear some find merit with a wagon or end vice. Kee's point taken, it's some way off but I was thinking of using the veritas tail vice set up, shown here used by Chris Tribe https://www.google.co.uk/search?

    Andy, great space. Tod, thanks for the reference, I'll look into it. Ted, it's reassuring to hear that the system is effective. I know that Alan Peters, Krenov, Kingshott, Klaus and boundless others found value in the system. I think you can do exceptional work without a tail vice, but they do seem of value to a detailed worker.

    q=chris+tribe+workbench&rlz=1CAASUD_enGB702GB704&s ource=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUieTKmerUAhUH JlAKHeFKDBAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=702#imgrc=9Axa51 0zlmNkuM:

  9. #9
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    My current bench is a Roubo design that I've now been working on for over a year and it's my first bench with a true tail vise. Have had a wagon vise and always thought, who needs a tail vise with one of these?

    The only reason for adding a tail vise was because I read a review of the new LN tail vise and thought, this is my legacy bench, at least for the next few years, so why not add a real tail vise? Didn't know, what I didn't know ;-)

    To my surprise the tail vise has slowly become my go to vise. Now understand why Krenov called it "the main vise" in his book....if I build another bench for myself it will most certainly have a tail vise!


    Andy

  10. #10
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    Hello Graham,

    I built a BC Roubo vise with a wagon vise and use it all the time. I went through the same deliberations you are, which you can read in this thread:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...and-Bench-Dead

    The short version is that, in retrospect, I might be better served with the LN tail vise, but frankly haven't yet run into a limiting situation. The leg vise can handle nearly all the situations that a tail vise does that a wagon vise can't in my experience. Regardless, I won't go back to a bench without one or the other.

    Hope that helps,
    Chris
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  11. #11
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    To my surprise the tail vise has slowly become my go to vise. Now understand why Krenov called it "the main vise" in his book....
    No surprise here, my tail vise gets used more than my face vise.

    It is a fairly simple vise and the more thought is given to it the more it seems to better suit my needs than a wagon vise or other type of end vise. It racks, but that is easy to control:

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...k-Spacer-Stack

    One thing this has done for me is to control how much pressure the end vise can put on pieces being held between a dog and the vise. This keeps pieces from bowing while being planed.

    It can be used in situations where a wagon vise or other end vise designs would come up short.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #12
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    Andy, thanks for that, it seems clear than many find a vice at the end of the bench very helpful.

    Christopher, thanks for that link. The bench that "Sean Hughto" shows is very close to what I'm closing in on. Although I might go for a thicker top.

    Nice tip, Jim. Thank you!

  13. #13
    You may want to read this: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...se-tail-vises/. There are end vises, tail vises, and wagon vises to evaluate. Because I didn't plan a tail vise during the construction of my bench, I ended up retrofitting a regular Record iron vise in the end of the bench. Honestly, I have never felt the need for more since I can simply place a bench dog in the moving jaw and have an instant wagon vise. What I do find handy is a vise that is perpendicular to the front of the bench to hold smaller stock or simply to hold a scraper for burnishing. I also can use spoke shaves on stock in this position...a poor man's shave horse. My bench is only 6' long, which makes a wagon vise useless with longer stock anyway. On the other hand, that Benchcrafted stuff is very cool if the budget allows.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 07-02-2017 at 5:48 PM.

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