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Thread: Shaper cutters

  1. #1

    Shaper cutters

    What are the advantages/disadvantages of euro block style cutters vs fixed wing cutters?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Camas, Wa
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    3,848
    PRO:
    Each set of knives is ~$20.
    Knives are HSS so they can be touched up with a stone or scary sharp method
    Custom ground knives would be relatively inexpensive.


    CON:
    Initial cost of the head is around $130
    Knives are not carbide so they won't last as long.

    Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are more

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cary Falk View Post
    PRO:
    Each set of knives is ~$20.
    Knives are HSS so they can be touched up with a stone or scary sharp method
    Custom ground knives would be relatively inexpensive.


    CON:
    Initial cost of the head is around $130
    Knives are not carbide so they won't last as long.

    Those are off the top of my head. I am sure there are more
    Thanks for quick reply. What about fit of components with euro blocks vs fixed. Seems like the later can be shimmed to achieve perfect fit while the first you have to rely solely on the accuracy of the grind on the knives.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
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    Modesto, CA, USA
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    9,810
    If you are making a matched set of say cope and rail then you really want two cutterheads that can be switched back and forth. That advantage goes to solid cutters and a shim. I would guess most folks only run 2-6 profiles most of the time so not sure how much money separate knives would really save.
    If you are a commercial shop how much labor cost is it to switch knives around and then realign the three knives to each other. Probably costs 2-5 dollars each time?
    I believe some of the older heads are banned in commercial shops since knife retention can be problematic. talk to your insurance company and OSHA before investing in a new head system
    Bill D.
    Last edited by Bill Dufour; 07-07-2017 at 10:49 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
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    Coppell, TX
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    There are adjustable mission style shaper cutters with inserts or with solid heads available from Amana. +1 on Cary's comments re the Pros/Cons

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    If you are a commercial shop how much labor cost is it to switch knives around and then realign the three knives to each other. Probably costs 2-5 dollars each time?
    More than that. Five dollars only pays an employee making $25/hr (but costing more like $30), for ten minutes. I can swap knives pretty quickly, but changing three heads to change profiles would take me a minimum of five minutes a head, and probably closer to ten if it's in the machine. When replacing knives, I go through the gibs just tight enough so nothing falls out. I check alignment and tighten, then I go through and make sure they are torqued correctly. It's OCD, but knives are expensive if you mess them up for no reason other than ignorance.

    We run separate heads for each profile we use on doors. Insert carbide, everything runs on pins so there's no alignment issues if everything is done correctly. A head, three backers, and three knives runs a bit less than $600 total.

    I used to have the inserts sharpened, but I don't bother any longer. My carbide guy does a reasonably good job, but they're never as sharp as new.

  7. #7
    A lot to me depends completely on what types of things you will be running predominantly. Cope and stick aside, a good corrugated head will give you far more capacity than euroblocks but your knife grinding costs will be a bit more. For us its about capacity. The euroblocks just dont offer enough versatility but on the other hand in our shop $100 for a small set of knives for a corrugated head is never an issue.

    I have a feeling a lot of euroblock sales happen the first time and then different profiles are almost never ordered. We have a couple heads we bought for specific tasks that just collect dust. But our corrugated heads are always in and out of the machine.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Canton, MI
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    529
    The Euro blocks have limiters the limit the amount of cut that can be taken. IMO, they're required if you're hand feeding your parts, not so much with a power feeder. With cope and stick, when solid head set need to be sharpened, you send the set in the whole set so they match. But parts cut off the new set may not fit very well parts with the old. Also, it may be cheaper to swap out inserts than to stop a project to send in the set to be sharpened (hasn't happened yet, but you never know). I like having the corrugated head for a lot of cuts, and I especially like the W&H head for the shaper that allows me to share some cutters with the moulder (also they're indexed for fast setup). I've got a mixture of all of them and they each have their place.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    Use what works best for you. I use what you guys call euro block cutters for simple profiles and rebates and solid block for complex profiles. I'm not a fan of long unsupported cutters and chip limiters are good too.

    Just a question, why are they called euro block? All of my cutters come from US, Australia, and Europe with no distinction in type. In fact my oldest solid blocks are Italian and German. Cheers

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
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    West Central Alberta, East of the Rockies - West of the Rest
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    To pick up on Wayne's question, they're also called 'Universal Cutterheads'.
    I have 2 40mm heads and 2 50 mm heads, both with limiters. I don't see any major flaws in them, the indexing pins have very tight tolerances and make knife installation repeatable, the knives are relatively cheap, the limiters do however increase the price.
    For cope and stick cutting jobs I have the stick cutting knives installed in the bottom head and and use the feeder, the cope cutting knives are installed in the top head and all I do is change the spindle height, powerdrive on my machine makes it repeatable but a digital height gauge would suffice.
    The 50 mm heads take 5.5 mm thick and 55 mm long knives, right now I have both heads stacked and set up with custom ground box joint knives. I can cut all the box joint corners of a 4 1/2" tall drawer (5/8" stock) in a single pass or when I flip the workpiece vertically 8 1/2" in 2 passes, a complete drawer takes me less than 2 minutes and once calibrated it is fully repeatable.
    However, custom knives for the 2 big heads did cost me almost $400 cdn. total. These thick knives are so beefy, there is no chance they will ever vibrate or flex under load.
    Euro/Universal cutterheads do sometimes pop up on ebay for very little money. I personally would avoid the so called starter kits, they include to many profiles that never get used. Buy the knives as you need them and touch them up once or twice, then toss them. How long does it take to swap a set of knives, 3 minutes?
    The one caveat of HSS knives is that they can dull very quickly in man made materials and the availability of carbide knives is very limited.

  11. #11
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    Knives for the euro blocks are cheap, but they have very limited cope and stick profiles if that is what your are looking for.

  12. #12
    Thank you all for the input. As usual a wealth of information. Sounds like there are multiple ways of skinning the same cat and I need to pick one and go with it.

  13. #13
    Hi Chris, just a few additional points.
    Not all knives are created equal which translates into both longevity and accuaracy of grinding. Some have used the "churned out like sausages" knives and complained of scalloping but you get what you pay for. Dimar, CMT and Felder sell the 40mm knives that are made by one mass production company and sometimes theyre not great. When the job warrents i have steel ground for me in higher quality steel to better tolerances and theyre fantastic.

    The Euro blocks are great for hobbiest because you can still get thousands of linear feet from them for not much money. Its much more economical than a carbide head for every profile. Whitehill sells a head that lets you run standard 40mm plus their own 55mm steel and in addition you have a skew knife carbide head all in one package.

    http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catal...?cid=2&c2id=60

    B

  14. #14
    Oh and by the way, you can get the knives tipped in carbide if you want. FYI

    B

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Hedges View Post
    Thank you all for the input. As usual a wealth of information. Sounds like there are multiple ways of skinning the same cat and I need to pick one and go with it.

    Haha...not likely. The reason there are so many types of cutters is they all do different things in slightly different ways. If you only do a very limited type of work you may be able to get by with just one type of cutter. However if you do a range of work over time you'll find yourself with all different types of cutters. My advice is to start with a decent Euro head set, if you do a bit of looking you can probably find a used set and save yourself some money. And you want a set, the more knives the better, this gives you a lot of flexibility to work with. I have several sets and I use them regularly for a wide range of work.

    Then if/when the need arises pick up a 2" - 3" corrugated head. You can do much larger cuts with these and they too are pretty indispensable.

    If your going to do a fair amount of cabinet doors like for say a kitchen, I'd recommend a stackable set of cutters, (think Freeborn), as they are the best bet for smaller volumes of cope and stick work.

    Lastly brazed tooling. I don't use a lot of it and don't think I've ever had a custom tool made. But I do own several profiles as they can also be handy for certain things. For instance a good 45 deg. chamfer cutter can be very handy. Or smaller roundover sizes that get used often etc. etc..

    anyway good luck with your decision making
    JeffD

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